Delta Force Veteran Reveals Why Some Teammates Called Him a Traitor | Ep. 314

0:00 [UNKNOWN]: Going to Delta Man, I just don't want to regret it and I try and I wanted to get back to war, especially after what happened at 9.11. [UNKNOWN]: My decision-making process is how I'm going to get there, the quickest way to get there is, you know, a through-year selection. [UNKNOWN]: That just gets your foot in the door, and then you've got to learn to keep it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I was pretty confident in everybody that we could compare ourselves to was a... we crushed them. [UNKNOWN]: So in my mind, I'm thinking like, man, how much faster can they actually be? [UNKNOWN]: We're doing our first runs. [UNKNOWN]: I put it on, let's go through the house and just say, Hey, just throw Kim lights and try to keep up. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean?

0:40 [UNKNOWN]: What was I doing for the next hour and a half? [UNKNOWN]: Throw Kim lights and try to keep up. [UNKNOWN]: It was just mind blowing to me, man. [UNKNOWN]: There's no level above that. [UNKNOWN]: The only thing that you were doing here. [UNKNOWN]: Payering for combat with no money limit or income back. [UNKNOWN]: She spent 10 years in Delta at 12 combat rotation, 40 months in combat, 32 of them with the unit. [UNKNOWN]: What does that rate of operations due to a man over a decade? [UNKNOWN]: A lot. [UNKNOWN]: Ladies and gentlemen, as always, it's both an honor and a pleasure to welcome my next guest to the podcast.

1:21 [UNKNOWN]: These retired U.S. Army spent 21 years in fact, 82nd Airborne, 7th Special Forces Group, and Delta Force. [UNKNOWN]: It's the co-founder and president of Warriors Heart Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage, Tom Spooner. [UNKNOWN]: Thanks, right? [UNKNOWN]: Thanks for coming, man. [UNKNOWN]: I was mentioned right before we recorded, I watched your pre-interview thing and I found it fascinating that you get nervous before these, which I think it's actually not uncommon, but I think for a lot of people listening, they would think, here's a guy who's done things that are as dangerous as can take place on the planet.

2:02 [UNKNOWN]: like with nerves of steel, but then sitting down, just chatting with a camera gun, makes you super nervous. [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Why do you think that is? [UNKNOWN]: Man, I don't know, I mean, I know why this would even from the beginning, whenever first started doing videos, whether it was training videos or whatever, that's always come up, it's like, yeah, put me in some stressful situation, bombs going off, people bleed and whatever, you know, and we know, hey, I'm good to go, but put a camera in front of my face and look. [UNKNOWN]: You know, but I know for here, you know, me and doing them, and when I speak and stuff, what I've learned, I mean, I've always had a high level of anxiety anyway, you know, and for this, it's just, to me it just means it's important, you know, when the reason why I'm getting nervous and why my brain is like switching on, it's like, hey man, this is important, you know, I mean, and I get nervous because, you know, [UNKNOWN]: I want to say the right things, not in a people-pleasing way, but you know, having this platform and having it going out.

2:57 [UNKNOWN]: It's like, man, how can I, how can I reach people, you know what to mean and connect with people and not just mumble on like an idiot or something? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because I can do that too. [UNKNOWN]: Well, we all can. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, the good news is it's not live. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's not a live speaking gig. [UNKNOWN]: There's, you know, there's no, no Mulligan's on that. [UNKNOWN]: Where is this? [UNKNOWN]: It's not a live stream. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it can always, you know, re-ask or what have you. [UNKNOWN]: So, hopefully it comes in a little bit. [UNKNOWN]: But I just, you know, want to show my appreciation for taking time out of your busy schedule. [UNKNOWN]: Everything you do to come sit down with us. [UNKNOWN]: The story is amazing what you're doing now is incredible and to be able to share that with the audiences is I think super impactful and much appreciated.

3:37 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, and thanks for having me. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I appreciate it exactly the same. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: What's the last book that you've read? [UNKNOWN]: The last book that I read was Primal Intelligence, Angus Fletcher, and he's also a buddy of my, too. [UNKNOWN]: Was there a singular takeaway? [UNKNOWN]: a man singular take away [UNKNOWN]: I don't think that, I mean, you have all that you need. [UNKNOWN]: That would be the singular takeaway, but it's just breaking into it. [UNKNOWN]: And that book, by Angus, I met him with a Tom Saturday in his wife, Jim, a camp home front event four years ago as where I met him, but he finally, this book came out maybe six months ago, and it's on audio also, and it's you'll love it, because it takes a lot of it has to do with special operations as an example.

4:33 [UNKNOWN]: And, uh, but really breaks it down as far as, like, man, the stuff that makes people special and important, they already have. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's awesome. [UNKNOWN]: Um, do you have a favorite quote? [UNKNOWN]: Favorite quote? [UNKNOWN]: Man, I'm sure I do what I can't think of it right now. [UNKNOWN]: Should have happened. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's it. [UNKNOWN]: I think one of my favorite quotes, and I don't even know if it's a legitimate quote, but it's like we always say it's like the 11th commandment is doubt-shelt-not-snivel. [UNKNOWN]: That was, yeah, you know what I mean like. [UNKNOWN]: Well, it's a quote now, a lot of the, yeah, that's awesome. [UNKNOWN]: Was that kind of a recurring theme in Delta, or just across the world?

5:14 [UNKNOWN]: Just across my life. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean like hey quit wine like don't wine about something do something Yeah, you know what I mean like it's kind of like people bitching on a road march You know what I mean to say Yeah, man, you're driving everybody else crazy too just like suffer in silence appropriately, you know [UNKNOWN]: It's interesting, I know at least in the sealed community, one thing I think we've mastered the art of is complaining. [UNKNOWN]: Without fail, no matter what's going on, the guys, the sled dog, guys would find something to complain about for sure. [UNKNOWN]: It was usually almost in fun or [UNKNOWN]: were a little bit ingest, but yeah, I mean, I used to drive all of our leadership crazy, you know, because we would just always find something to wine about.

6:03 [UNKNOWN]: I said, that's what I wanted. [UNKNOWN]: One quote in that thing is, there's nothing worse than a high maintenance commander. [UNKNOWN]: Most of us are at least in the Navy. [UNKNOWN]: Maybe not so much the Army. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, there's a lot of two in the Army, especially. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: What was your favorite thing to do growing up? [UNKNOWN]: A favorite thing to do growing up was two things. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I love playing football. [UNKNOWN]: I joined the military, so obviously it wasn't good at it. [UNKNOWN]: But I love playing football in a love fishing. [UNKNOWN]: Man, I mean, I've always just loved fishing. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And I grew up in South Florida, Lake Okeechobee, so I mean, perfect. [UNKNOWN]: Did you spend a lot of time outdoors doing things that I think most people would expect or kind of prepatory for joining the army?

6:53 [UNKNOWN]: The biggest thing for me, as far as preparatory, joining the Army, was like learning how to survive. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I'm generation X. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So both parents work in Lashki kids. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Lord of the Fly stuff, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, but I mean, I did, I loved to hunt, I loved to fish. [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, I mean, I started, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like cutting grass and working when I was 10 years old, as far as work ethic and all that kind of stuff. [UNKNOWN]: What ended up making me successful? [UNKNOWN]: Like a lot of that did occur during that time. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I'm right there with you. [UNKNOWN]: I did all those same kind of things. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it was gone right in bikes with the neighborhood crew all the time and playing and construction sites.

7:34 [UNKNOWN]: And you know, it's like stuff like that just doesn't happen really anymore. [UNKNOWN]: And same thing like I wanted a guitar, you know, when I was in junior high and my parents were going to buy me a guitar, you know, so I pushed our, our pushmower around the neighborhood mowing yards for five bucks a pop, you know, for, you know, a long time, a couple of years before I had enough to save up to go to a pawn shop and get some piece of junk, you know, used guitar and a crack, you know, the practice amp, but yeah, it was amazing. [UNKNOWN]: In that kind of book-ended childhood experience in total, was there a catalyst that made you like decide, yes, this is what I want to do in joining the military?

8:18 [UNKNOWN]: Oh, for sure. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, had an uncle in mind that was a three-two-or-ve yet non-bat, and my grandfather was a World War II vet. [UNKNOWN]: On one side, my other grandfather was law enforcement, you know, forever. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, I've always wanted to join the military. [UNKNOWN]: Those two guys, my uncle and my grandfather, they were always my idols, my heroes, you know, wanted to be like him, look like him, act like him, talk like him, everything. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, for us far back as I can remember, there's only one thing I wanted to do and there's joined the military. [UNKNOWN]: That's awesome. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: Even as a young young kid. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Was it always the Army or why the Army and why airborne?

8:59 [UNKNOWN]: So it was Army, both of my uncle and my grandfather were in the Army, and in the other uncle he was airborne the whole time, and so that was the airborne piece, but then there was just this infatuation with Rangers. [UNKNOWN]: with you know what I mean learning about them and reading about them and you know and all of that stuff and that was just that was that was what it's like yes I wanted to join the army yes I wanted to join the infantry but that was the hilarious thing right there only thing I ever wanted to do growing up was be in range of regiment and it was the one thing that I never did [UNKNOWN]: Why?

9:45 [UNKNOWN]: Why? [UNKNOWN]: Why? [UNKNOWN]: I guess why do you smoke me in those recruiters, man? [UNKNOWN]: They freaking get you. [UNKNOWN]: You know, yeah Yeah, as far as that just on that piece was You know, I mean, I struggle without call from a young age all throughout I mean even more than the abnormal heavy drink And you know in country towns and stuff so I had what age did you start drinking? [UNKNOWN]: I started drinking when I was 10 years old. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so, I mean, not on the regular, you know what I mean, but as far as knowing that wow, I drink that stuff and man, I felt a whole lot better and it was great, you know. [UNKNOWN]: So I even noticed that I can remember my first drink like the magic that happened. [UNKNOWN]: And that's kind of what differentiates people that are just maybe hard and heavy drinkers and people that are alcoholics, you know.

10:31 [UNKNOWN]: And so I struggled with that, you know, really a lot [UNKNOWN]: And, uh, what was our question again? [UNKNOWN]: Just why, why the army is generally speaking? [UNKNOWN]: Um, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And so then, um, [UNKNOWN]: I started all the ranger stuff that was just infatuated with doing all of that. [UNKNOWN]: And they always said, why didn't I end that to you? [UNKNOWN]: Yes, it did. [UNKNOWN]: Then too many bones. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to have to. [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to have to. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I've got an outline and I'm still lost. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So whenever I was joined, and so I got, I started getting in trouble. [UNKNOWN]: I went to school up in Tallahassee, participated in FSU's ROTC program, failed miserably. [UNKNOWN]: But I did go to airborne school, which made me believe that I knew everything there was to know about being in the army.

11:13 [UNKNOWN]: So I came back. [UNKNOWN]: to South Florida after failing out of all of that other than airborne school would pass that one. [UNKNOWN]: And came down and I got in trouble with laws on probation. [UNKNOWN]: I went to the recruiter and like, man, just get me out. [UNKNOWN]: Just first thing smoking out of here, and I was 1990. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, we got a perfect contract. [UNKNOWN]: 11x ray for two years and 11x ray is an unassigned inventory. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, yeah, cool, and then a short version of that story was, is that, yeah, I ended up becoming an 11 hotel, which was a tow missile guy, and they didn't have those in Ranger Regiment, and they did away with all their heavy anti-tank stuff, so right out of base, because I was going to go to, already been to Airborne School, I was going to base it, go rip, and what they called it back then, and then, you know, then go to Ranger Regiment, but that dream got crushed right at basic training.

12:05 [UNKNOWN]: And you were drinking kind of through base or not in base accounts, but kind of the early years of being in the military pretty heavy still. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, first two years about that was, yeah, because joined in the military, you know, me and my holy crap, man, what I was like winning the Super Bowl for me, you know, I mean I was, cause I never really fit in even though it was. [UNKNOWN]: athletic doing hard work and doing all that stuff is still just never fit in anywhere and then once I got in even a basic training man it was wonderful and it was good at it you know which was those two things had never matched up before in my life and um yeah man but that was that was it.

12:46 [UNKNOWN]: was going through was being an alcoholic and joining boot camp and going like cold turkey was that a withdrawal struggle for it all or no man because I mean it might have been going on there there was obviously some physiology going on you know as far as detox and kind of period but it was and it wasn't anything crazy and I never even viewed myself as an alcoholic I mean it's like hey I partied [UNKNOWN]: Crazy, good. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I did crazy stuff and you know there was a lot of stuff personally that wasn't great but a military that was never a problem until there was. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So speaking of that at what point and where were you at in the military career wise when you realized that it was a problem?

13:31 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, so it was, so whenever I joined the military, that was right when it was summer of 1990. [UNKNOWN]: So I racked it just in a very cool way. [UNKNOWN]: You know, what would be the Gulf War? [UNKNOWN]: You know, everybody started deploying and I was in basic training for that. [UNKNOWN]: And so for me, it was like, said, winning like Super Bowl after Super Bowl after Super Bowl because it was, join the Army, found where I wanted to be. [UNKNOWN]: That was great. [UNKNOWN]: War kicked off, always wanted to go to war. [UNKNOWN]: My heroes did, you know, and, and so, and then, you know, and I had the girl and I had everything, you know, got married before went, went to the golf, came back, but during the whole time, like my level of violence and, and the amount I was drinking and the crazy shit that I would do, you know, was just kept leveling up, leveling up, leveling up.

14:19 [UNKNOWN]: A lot of it had to do with how much I [UNKNOWN]: You know, from being civilian straight into combat, even though what I experienced in the Gulf War was like not even close to what happened, you know, post 9-11, it was enough, you know, and it really just solidified the fact of, it was like, yeah, man, if there was a God, you know, I mean, it's probably the devil because if there was a God that was worth anything, they wouldn't allow this to happen or that to happen. [UNKNOWN]: you know me and all the stuff that we know is that happened in war so it just rashes it up I was pretty hateful angry pretty furious guy which infantry loves that you know but on the that was all kind on the inside and then my home life with my brand new wife you know to me and I was only twenty one years old twenty two years old and I was twenty one a joint and um [UNKNOWN]: But that thing, you know, my personal life was doing not great, and then it became awful, but professionally, man, first, my first two years in the military, being a full blown, like drinking almost every day when I could alcoholic.

15:31 [UNKNOWN]: I was killing it, man. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, early 90s and the 80s second to be a spec for with the Ranger tab, you know, I mean, Anna E.I.B. [UNKNOWN]: Anna C.I.B., you know, and Pre-Gent Master Course, and be an E5 all within the first two years, I mean, super, super high functioning on the professional side, but on the personal side, you know, internally I was a mass and then, you know, it started bleeding over big time into me and my wife. [UNKNOWN]: We were young, but also man, I was a, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm one of those guys that whenever I drink, like, you would tell me, like, hey man, you shouldn't ever drink again. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm one of those guys that are just always go too far, always be inappropriate, always do, like the, like, I can't believe you fucking did that things.

16:19 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's what it was like. [UNKNOWN]: Not every time that I drank, that I do stuff that would compromise my own integrity, but every time I had done something, I had been drinking. [UNKNOWN]: Like I wouldn't do that sober, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But so that's where all collided was where... [UNKNOWN]: Again, professionally, that was part of the mind numbing thing for me, it was like, man, how can I be so good, you know, at what I'm doing here, and yeah, be so awful, you know what I mean on the personal side. [UNKNOWN]: It didn't make a lot of sense to me, and I really didn't think I'll go hold anything to do with it, like truly. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, it's such a strange duality that exists at the same time.

17:01 [UNKNOWN]: Can you walk us through your experience with the Gulf work? [UNKNOWN]: Is that's one thing that... [UNKNOWN]: You know, there's a lot of stuff on Vietnam, Somalia, you know, post 9-11, or African Afghanistan. [UNKNOWN]: There's not a lot of experiences through the eyes of someone who's lived in a combat environment from a Gulf War and being so young and new to the military with all of those credentials and experience at such a young age. [UNKNOWN]: I'd love to hear your kind of your experience, Gulf War wise. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so it was pretty uneventful on the gunfighting side of the house. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, they're trying to kill me. [UNKNOWN]: I'm trying to kill you, actual gunfighting.

17:42 [UNKNOWN]: Because I was with the 80s second. [UNKNOWN]: So we just drove through the desert hundreds of miles. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then we're just kind of clearing up behind all of the tracks. [UNKNOWN]: We were actually behind the French Foreign Legion folks who were in front of us. [UNKNOWN]: it's so yeah so it and I was a private man I was a E2 you know and [UNKNOWN]: And so with my platoon, going to combat all that stuff, the big things that I experienced there for me was just the reality of, you know, minus one thing when you're like, yeah, let's go to war. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, like, we all experienced before it actually happened.

18:23 [UNKNOWN]: And it was like, wow, man, this is serious stuff. [UNKNOWN]: And you know, when it was so big, you know, and I mean, it was brigades and divisions. [UNKNOWN]: And you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, true conventional. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: The one thing that the first real, you know, like holy crap, this is a lot different was, again, none of us super sexy stories, but affected me. [UNKNOWN]: Obviously, I remember that, you know, is, um, [UNKNOWN]: up for days, you know, driving and everything and, you know, thinking that I'm going to get blown up at any moment, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So just experience and that level of anxiety and thoughts and whatever. [UNKNOWN]: But I was underneath the finally we stopped for, you know, rest in as a symbol, the whole, what they call it.

19:09 [UNKNOWN]: And they call it the, it was a whole, it was a whole brigade task force. [UNKNOWN]: Now they call them combat teams, brigade combat teams. [UNKNOWN]: And so there was all the artillery, all the everything, so everything's all together, and we kept getting closer and closer, and now we were in a, you know, I mean, you know, closer to the fight. [UNKNOWN]: And then, so it was sleeping like underneath the home V, you know, but I didn't know, but right next to us was like MLRS system. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, so those things cranked off, you know, while I was sleeping, you know, just out with that stands for. [UNKNOWN]: I don't even know, as if big ass rockets that are mobiley carried arrest, their mobile is in there.

19:50 [UNKNOWN]: How do you know what it says? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, knowing the military and their kind of mobile Spanish, like backwards news. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's probably mobile launcher, rocket launcher system. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, probably. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think so. [UNKNOWN]: But when those things went off, man, I'd never heard anything that loud before. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, you're watching an impact, you know what I mean, like taking out a grid square, all that kind of stuff that they do, you know, and then just moving through and then just see in like all the carnage, you know, that happens, you know, I mean, all the innocence that happens, what, you know, they call collateral damage and everything that just happens in war. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, there's no way for none of that to happen. [UNKNOWN]: And again, my mindset was nothing with opposite of what it, you know, is later on, you know, and it was just, again, like just how awful everything was.

20:41 [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, I had read about, you know, me and all this stuff and all the Vietnam books and all my hero stuff and everything, but to see it, to smell it, you know, to the reality of it, it was like, wow, man, this is a lot of stuff. [UNKNOWN]: And then, whenever it came to you, again, not any armed conflict, like shoot in each other, but we were clear in a bunch of, [UNKNOWN]: Again, we were just doing cleanup, so they would roll through and take down all the big stuff, and then we were going through all the different bunkers, all the underground bunkers and stuff, and most of the time it was nothing, but you know, I mean, sometimes we would experience booby traps.

21:22 [UNKNOWN]: So again, it was just that constant fear and tension and understanding and like the reality of it, and then a few times, man, there was guys hiding inside of there. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, just first time experiencing the bad guy, you know what I mean, the enemy, you know, and And not knowing what the hell that was doing man, you know what I mean, like, I don't think God had, you know, good in CEOs around me, you know, and seasons guys, you know what I mean, and I'm taking the guys prisoners and that kind of stuff, and yeah, wow. [UNKNOWN]: is there an image that kind of stands out from that entire experience that's the most burnt into your mind carnage-wise?

22:06 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, there was, man, I wish there were cool stories, but there's not, but there were things that did see or that, and it was very strange, it was, so it was probably, the AirWorks are in January, we started moving out in February, all that stuff, and then it was near the end, you know, we were setting up, so different things that are just kind [UNKNOWN]: In my mind with that was is that one of the things that kind of pissed me off is like because we said at these checkpoints You know we'd rolled in there and then we had a stop point, you know to me and where they they stopped this from advancing and So from there we just set up all these checkpoints and stuff and it was you know buses and and you know everybody was leaving because we could see [UNKNOWN]: I mean, five, six hundred meters away, like battle going on, like, you know, all the Saddam forces and the kind of the rebels that were uprising, I mean, they were just decimating everything out there.

23:06 [UNKNOWN]: But we couldn't engage in that. [UNKNOWN]: So we were just like watching it, and then all these people were fleeing, you know, those areas. [UNKNOWN]: It was outside of Nazaria and Bavara, but believe it was during those times in them. [UNKNOWN]: you know so these people coming through the women the children you know they're starving i mean you have like dump trucks just full of humans that grab maybe a pot you know to mean in their toddler you know and that's what they they left with and then all of the men also that would come with them and you know and they uh i'm just like why aren't you fighting you know i mean like what are you [UNKNOWN]: You know, and they were always talking about, I'm what pissed me off a little bit because a lot of them would always be like, hey, go fight, you go fight, go fight, you know, and of course we wanted to.

23:51 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's all that we wanted to do was go fight. [UNKNOWN]: But it was just like, man, how can I, I mean, I can see myself like getting my family to safety, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then like, coming back. [UNKNOWN]: Well, oh. [UNKNOWN]: there was that piece of it, then there was another time we were getting this truck and we had to fire off all these missiles that hadn't been fired off, you know, and everything as far as before we continued driving, you know, to Saudi Arabia, you know, and to leave, and so then [UNKNOWN]: So we picked up this old burnout truck man and I'm the private right so I get all the shit jobs and so we're pulling this truck we're going to you know use for target practice issued it with and and there was this this burnt up dead dude you know in the passenger seat it was just skeleton and it was all you know me just burnt to a crisp literally [UNKNOWN]: And we're driving down the road and being pulled down the road, driving this semi-truck kind of thing and I'm looking over seeing the dead guy man and then it's just like, it looks like, and all the dust and everything's blowing around.

24:58 [UNKNOWN]: It's like man, I'm breathing this dude's body. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was just like surreal. [UNKNOWN]: What the fuck is going on? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like what? [UNKNOWN]: It was just, again, just kind of trippy, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then, you know, when seeing dead, you know what I mean, non-military folks, you know, I mean of all ages, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That was, and a lot of them just burned, you know, and so it's burned to a crisp, you know? [UNKNOWN]: So those are the images that I had impacted for, you know, in my mind, you know what I mean as far as that. [UNKNOWN]: As you guys came back because it was a relatively short engagement. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, absolutely.

25:39 [UNKNOWN]: Coming back from that, like, did you reflect at all on almost an expectation versus reality? [UNKNOWN]: Like, what you thought it was going to be versus what it was and any disparity? [UNKNOWN]: Like, did you think in those terms at all? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I was pretty pissed that we didn't like really get into, you know, me in actual fighting, because a lot of units did, you know what I mean, a lot of units did, a lot of guys seen real war, you know what I mean, throughout that whole time, we just weren't one of them, you know, just by position and what we were doing and we were light infantry man, you know what I mean, that was a tank war and you know, mechanized infantry and all that. [UNKNOWN]: But that was, that was the big thing that for me was just like, damn, man, like, but it was also kind of at least, hey, got, you know, me an experience, some of it, you know what I mean?

26:28 [UNKNOWN]: And, uh, because man, I've been from small, po-dunk town, man, where, I mean, I really hadn't even flown or seen places like to go to a different country and, uh, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, so it was all a big, uh, great experience, man, and I wanted, again, a solidified, like why I joined the military as a man, this is what I want to do. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you were still drinking at that point in the life. [UNKNOWN]: Did you drink in country at all? [UNKNOWN]: Like, did you guys do a little struggle stuff? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we got the, you know, I mean, the wife, you know, I mean, everybody was well trained, you know, and a bottle of mouthwash. [UNKNOWN]: It was shampoo bottles, you know, because they're a little bit bigger. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, we were getting it when we got packages, which wasn't often.

27:12 [UNKNOWN]: Once everything kicked off, and when we crossed over, but I mean, you know, November, December, just when I got there anyway, the guys were there before, but we had care packages coming in and stuff, because we were in Saudi Arabia, but yeah, had that coming in. [UNKNOWN]: But again, it was, you know, I mean, I had a lot, a lot, a lot of good times drinking. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was all awful, you know, in all the time, like it was at the end. [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, there was still a lot of times, man, whenever drinking was still a really good thing. [UNKNOWN]: Huge part of our community, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, you know, I mean, if it's not destroying your life and not destroying your career, like, you know, I mean, it's part of our culture, you know, and there's nothing I absolutely wrong with it.

27:55 [UNKNOWN]: But if it starts destroying your life and your career, I guess, an issue. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Can you walk us through the beginning of the end of your drinking days and how it kind of avalanched into you being able to or being forced to become sober so quickly? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: So there was a [UNKNOWN]: So they, like I said, what was going on with the military? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, a super, super successful, and actually like near that end was almost at the high point. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because, okay, I couldn't go to Ranger Regiment, but at least I could go to Ranger School. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And like I said, I was just doing, um, really good, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean?

28:35 [UNKNOWN]: It's like, [UNKNOWN]: The Ranger tab was that my golden ticket, you know, to me, and especially most people in the 80s second in that time, NCOs that were Ranger Tabs usually had come from Ranger Regiment and officers. [UNKNOWN]: That was kind of it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So for me to go and do that, [UNKNOWN]: I recycled mountains, did mountains twice, it was so great, but I mean, I was just young, but having that man had just kind of set me up for this school and the next school. [UNKNOWN]: So I was just, again, crushing it. [UNKNOWN]: So military, I was doing great, but meanwhile at home. [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean it was uh... it was not good you know in the wife and i'm not not doing well and then you know her although to me if you keep drinking you keep doing these things you know to mean i'm gonna quit smart woman you know to me should be saying all that stuff and uh... and so um... where it all can't it came to a head was is whenever you know i kept going you know i mean because i couldn't imagine my life without drink it [UNKNOWN]: at all.

29:42 [UNKNOWN]: And I never said to myself, like, hey, I'm going to quit drinking. [UNKNOWN]: Because when I wasn't drinking, like inside what that felt like was as I was restless, irritable, discontent, shame, guilt, remorse, depression, anxiety, furious, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Within a two minute spectrum. [UNKNOWN]: And it got rid of all that. [UNKNOWN]: It all love it, man. [UNKNOWN]: Always talk about it whenever I'm at meetings and stuff, talking about it, it's like, you know, pound a couple of shots. [UNKNOWN]: If you, whatever it was, you know, get enough in me and then be able to take the big breath, you know, like, [UNKNOWN]: No matter what was going on my life, no matter what I've screwed up, no matter what it was all, everything was okay and you were okay and this was okay.

30:23 [UNKNOWN]: Hey everybody's okay man, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But then there was that little phase of a spree, you know what I mean of a drinking where everything was all right and everything was funny but I never stopped there, you know it just always went to the next level and I went you know what I mean and then [UNKNOWN]: the go-on-mormantality spill over in alcohol. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, until it was, I passed out, was locked up, knocked out, you know, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: You know, that was only time it would end, you know, once I, once I started. [UNKNOWN]: Sleep is a non-negotiable for me. [UNKNOWN]: I train hard, I push my body, and if my recovery is off, everything downstream suffers. [UNKNOWN]: The mattress you're sleeping on matters more than most people realize.

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31:51 [UNKNOWN]: But then, you know, whenever, uh, and I love my wife, man, more than anything in the world, Army would be a close second. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because, uh, and, uh, man, and whenever we split, like she's, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I can't, I can't do it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and, um, whenever she was like, hey, yeah, we're done, man. [UNKNOWN]: That was, uh, those two things that happened, though. [UNKNOWN]: It was, um, you know what I mean is like, I, uh, [UNKNOWN]: I broke all my rules, you know, the things that I said I would never do, you know what to mean as far as, because the deal with me is under the influence of alcohol, I'm capable of anything. [UNKNOWN]: Anything. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: There's no more philosophy, there's no ethics, there's no all that shit goes away, man.

32:33 [UNKNOWN]: For me, I mean, it takes a nuclear device to stop me from getting the next drink once I start. [UNKNOWN]: And but when we split up, man, that's whenever really got my attention because in my heart like truly loved her more than anything but my actions weren't that you know me that was the disconnect that was the violation in my own integrity is that my actions were not matching up with what I knew was was the reality going on inside. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and she was like, gone, gone, like, so I was like, hey, I'll stop drinking. [UNKNOWN]: And because I knew I was losing it, man, like, again, I was that guy that you were just like, you wouldn't have stayed, you wouldn't have hung around with.

33:14 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Because near the end, even my buddies that my hard ass drinking buddies, you know, even they were like, steering slow. [UNKNOWN]: Like, what are you doing? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I would [UNKNOWN]: and I would do all kinds of stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Man, and people would tell me that I would do and I would say you're lying. [UNKNOWN]: Because we didn't have these iPhones and stuff back then. [UNKNOWN]: There was no evidence, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And because I was doing stuff that I would never do sober. [UNKNOWN]: You know, just how mean I was being and the things that I were doing, and it was, so I would think that you were lying. [UNKNOWN]: Like, because I know I would set myself on fire before I would do this or that, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And so I had a little internal, [UNKNOWN]: light bulb going off like uh... this is this is bad and then uh... so then in my mind i was okay well i just want drink any more [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know what I mean, and so, so I didn't under, you know, because anything hard I've ever tried to do in my life, I've successfully completed it, you know, and I was using the not drinking thing, just as a way to manipulate my wife to maybe get back with me, you know what I mean?

34:22 [UNKNOWN]: And so I started going to AA, you know, alcoholics anonymous. [UNKNOWN]: But at the beginning man, the only reason why I was doing it was, like I said, I was going to use it for ammunition to maybe manipulate, I'm not drinking, I'm all done, I'm all done, you know, and because I'd said that before, you know, I'll stop, I'll stop, you know. [UNKNOWN]: Were you still drinking even going to the meetings? [UNKNOWN]: No, no, okay. [UNKNOWN]: So I stopped. [UNKNOWN]: I did stop. [UNKNOWN]: But a lot of things in my and I like this is the hilarious thing. [UNKNOWN]: So I moved back into the barracks because I was in such good races, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, because normally if you know you live off post, you can't stay on the barracks.

35:03 [UNKNOWN]: But like, hey, you can stay, you know, in an extra room that they had and when I was in E5, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you heard what I just said, like, at the very same level. [UNKNOWN]: That's like trying to not drink at the bar, right? [UNKNOWN]: And so, but anyway, I was doing it, man, and I couldn't, but I was just doing it my own way, still. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, and I was going to meetings, I was not drinking, and I was reading the AA Big Book that called, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I was doing those things so I was getting an education, you know what I mean, but man, I was pissed off and again alcohol was never my solution, I mean, it was never my problem.

35:47 [UNKNOWN]: It was my solution. [UNKNOWN]: So, you know, if I felt bad, I drank, if I felt good, I drank, if I had problems, I drank, if I didn't have, you know, if I was solving problems, I drank, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, whenever alcohol was away from me, it wasn't that you took away the problem. [UNKNOWN]: Like you just took away my only solution. [UNKNOWN]: had no coping skills, had no tools in the toolbox, I mean that was it. [UNKNOWN]: So now I just had a whole lot of problems emotionally, mentally, physically, you know, but no solution to them. [UNKNOWN]: So I'm, you know, man, and I'm pissed off about going to AA. [UNKNOWN]: And uh, because my dad was in, uh, my dad was an alcoholic. [UNKNOWN]: not in recovery until I was 18 years old and when I was 18 then he went to AA, you know, and he got sober.

36:36 [UNKNOWN]: Plus, man, I load myself for asking for help. [UNKNOWN]: You never ask for help. [UNKNOWN]: Men shake hands, men handle their own problems, and they don't fucking cry. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's what I knew about being a man, so now I'm in these rooms with these people that are whining in my opinion, you know, and I just thought it was for a bunch of weak people that couldn't control their own lives, you know, but there I was in those same rooms. [UNKNOWN]: But I started getting the education, and I started, because I didn't know what an alcoholic was, man. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't know [UNKNOWN]: If it was the bomb under the bridge, or I just thought one day you went into an AA meeting and you said, oh, I'm an alcoholic, I was like, that wasn't hard for me to do because I've admitted worse stuff to better people, you know what I mean, like it wasn't.

37:23 [UNKNOWN]: I didn't, you know, some people like, you know, it was hard to admit, like, [UNKNOWN]: It was a, the hard thing for me was like in the first step of talks about admit now it's powerless over alcohol. [UNKNOWN]: That one word powerless, that's the one I couldn't wrap my head around, because my word was revolved in physical violence. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Discipline, self-control. [UNKNOWN]: The MN, and if I got you by the throat, tell me about powerless. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Now you're saying one shot of whiskey, can whip my, you know, like no way, 62 days are not drinking. [UNKNOWN]: I found out what power this was. [UNKNOWN]: Wow. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, because I didn't, for the first time in my life, I truly, because over that 62 days, I went to a bunch, a lot of meetings, I talked to a few guys, had was reading that book, and I started to be understand that, you know, to me, and like, okay, I'll call this a mental obsession and a physical allergy.

38:14 [UNKNOWN]: You know, so I started to just get and really educated, and the more I got educated, the more I found out that was me. [UNKNOWN]: And you know, but then it was just like I finally realized what power this was because I truly didn't want to drink anymore, and I wanted to drink so bad I couldn't stand it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: You mentioned it a little bit earlier, but I'm curious to get your perception or perspective of the difference between a heavy drink or an alcoholic. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so it's uh, the difference is, um, because I had good buddies a month who was drinking drink for drink with me, you know what I mean as far as I, man, hard, drinking, falling to drink too much category, right?

38:58 [UNKNOWN]: But these guys wouldn't do, like, everybody when they get drunk, they do stupid shit. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, if they get too drunk, you know, and, um, and so [UNKNOWN]: those guys would get drunk and they would get funnier and then they would just start slurring and then they would be embarrassing or something like that. [UNKNOWN]: Me, it was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. [UNKNOWN]: I became a different person. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Literally. [UNKNOWN]: Not a funnier, more laid-back version of you, you became somebody else. [UNKNOWN]: No, man, and I was looking for more drinking, and I was in the predominantly looking for a fight, you know what I mean the whole time. [UNKNOWN]: And then, um, [UNKNOWN]: because that whole heavy drink in physical violence, you know what I mean all of that kind of, you know the typical low rent bar scene, you know what I mean?

39:46 [UNKNOWN]: Like that is, you know, the biker bars, all of that kind of stuff, you know, which favor was full of during those time frame. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, but that was the big differentiator is, is that [UNKNOWN]: is that a couple of things is, number one, when I start drinking, I can't control the amount that I'm going to take. [UNKNOWN]: Nor did I, I didn't want to hear. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I wanted to get drunk. [UNKNOWN]: That's, I wanted to change the way that I felt, because nothing else changed the way that I felt. [UNKNOWN]: But then the other thing was, is I couldn't ever stay stopped. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So those two things the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde kind of deal, you know, those are things very big differentiators when someone they're just just drink.

40:28 [UNKNOWN]: I got like my uncle, my Vietnam vet uncle, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I don't believe he was an all, you know, he was the guy that was like, [UNKNOWN]: I don't understand on his PTSD bullshit, you know, you know, he's like, uh, and I'm sitting there with him. [UNKNOWN]: This was after I was sober because me and him were drinking buddies for a while, too, and then, um, you know, and then I started, you know, later on, but I just don't understand all that. [UNKNOWN]: Meanwhile, he's drinking like half a bottle of Jack and I, you know, but the difference with him is man again, he wasn't even though he drank like, you know, the quantities of an alcoholic would. [UNKNOWN]: he didn't change and he knew when to say, okay, I've had enough with that and he knew when like he could say, all right, I've had enough.

41:10 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, he could. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And those were two things that I never could do and that's like, there's some other differentiators but like those are the main ones, you know. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Wow. [UNKNOWN]: Because you know what I mean, and just like in my life is like the picture of it, you know, in all aspects out of my life or the majority in 90% of the aspects of my life, [UNKNOWN]: I'm killing it, you know what I mean, I mean above average, and then these one or two categories mean an intimate relationship, you know, a me drinking, like just, you know, unwell, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And so at that point you'd been in the Army for how many years. [UNKNOWN]: two years.

41:52 [UNKNOWN]: So, going through all of that and I guess I'm curious, length of time-wise, how long did it take for you to feel like you had beaten it? [UNKNOWN]: And I know that that's subjective and that you want to knock-aholic, always in knock-aholic, but I guess had it under control and felt like you could stick with Bing suits. [UNKNOWN]: So, there was a [UNKNOWN]: There was a lot of different things that was going through my mind during those times, you know, and once I finally gave in, like I said, it became understood what powerless was and basically just, um, [UNKNOWN]: Just kind of gave in, quit resisting, you know what I mean like, hey, because I ended up at the crossroads, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And my choice was to go back to the life that I was living, meaning that drinking life, the lion, cheating, stealing, manipulating, you know what I mean, go back to that life and get what that life's gonna get me, because there was no mystery what was gonna happen.

42:47 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I come from a long line of alcohol, it's man like, you know. [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean I can do that or I can try this like no kid and so around not just white knuckle on it like what I was doing you know what I mean because I wasn't getting a sponsor I wasn't going you know what I mean doing stepwork I wasn't doing like the whole things that I was doing was going to meetings like and that's that's not A.A. and so then whenever I made that choice of like okay I'm going to really do this thing and [UNKNOWN]: I mean, we're extreme, we're extremists, right? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Is that a guy? [UNKNOWN]: So I'm either in or I'm out. [UNKNOWN]: I'm not going to do something in the middle for long, you know, so, and I was in this A.A. kind of thing, you know me, but again, I wasn't all in, and so after when I made that choice, you know what I mean of like, hey, I'm going all in on this, which I wasn't happy about, but man, I didn't have any other options, and I, for the first time in my life, I didn't want to go back to that way of life.

43:45 [UNKNOWN]: That was the difference for me in that moment. [UNKNOWN]: And so I got this dude to be my sponsor, they call it an age. [UNKNOWN]: It's just like a coach, you know what I mean, as someone that has been through the 12 steps, and who's willing to take me through the 12 steps, you know what I mean to overcome, you know, meaning to get treated, my untreated alcoholism, you know. [UNKNOWN]: So I asked the dude to be my sponsor, and he only had like a year sober, he wasn't some kind of guru or something. [UNKNOWN]: You know, when he walked me through that book and he walked me through those steps, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: whatever field man you know what I'm saying it's just like a like a ranger handbook you know I mean if you if you want to be a ranger you do the ranger handbook you know what I mean if you want to get sober you do what it says in the book follow the frickin instructions you know what I mean then so whenever to get to your question of you know winded that switch you know then a big fear factor kicked in on me and it's like man I'm not gonna be able to [UNKNOWN]: I ain't never not drank by choice, you know, in over two months.

44:44 [UNKNOWN]: Like on deployments, you know, if I got in trouble, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I don't know when to lay low, I mean, I was, I mean, I was the town drunk, not the Villageria. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean is, like, I knew when to lay low, but this was the first time it was like, no, man, I'm like, I'm not going to. [UNKNOWN]: So I had this fear, man, because my life, a lot of my life had been. [UNKNOWN]: Do good do good screw everything up do good do good screw everything up like that had been my whole life So I'd have to do really really good. [UNKNOWN]: So whenever I screwed up it just kind of brought me down to normal. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then even in the military all that kind of stuff and um [UNKNOWN]: So I kind of knew the screw-up was coming, but I didn't want it to, you know, and I was just relying on that God, it was my sponsor, you know what I mean, and then as we started moving through the steps, you know, I started, you know, the biggest thing and getting to the answer to your question, you know, is as the biggest thing was the God factor for me.

45:40 [UNKNOWN]: and which that was the the biggest hurdle other than the powerlessness now the next thing was because the powerlessness is all that that's saying is is that okay on my own I do not have the power to not drink and change my behavior in the way that I feel without a drink. [UNKNOWN]: Because if I could do that on my own, I would have never needed help. [UNKNOWN]: So obviously, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Just logic says, if I don't have the power within myself to change and I want to change, then I'm going to need some extra power, which was external to me. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and we're seeing that brought up a huge issue, because I had mentioned before how much I hated God.

46:24 [UNKNOWN]: Always known there was a God, I mean I grew up in church, you know what I mean with my grandma none of this is a hit on church negatively. [UNKNOWN]: I just could never connect with my grandmother's Jesus, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I just, no matter, I mean I mean I had perfect attendance pins from Sunday School in church, like it was my grandmother's you know what I mean, rule and the man I could never connect with that God. [UNKNOWN]: I mean I even beg to at times, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And [UNKNOWN]: And in my mind, God didn't want anything to do with me. [UNKNOWN]: Therefore, I don't want anything to do with him. [UNKNOWN]: And now I'm being confronted again, back to that little kid that God didn't want to hang out with either.

47:07 [UNKNOWN]: So the good thing, man, about following the directions in that book and walking with another man, you know what I mean, through that, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Just hey, here's what to do, it's like hey, here's what to do, and we're going to do it together. [UNKNOWN]: You know, that was the game changer, because all my life people said you're hey, man, you're screwed up, and you need help, I might. [UNKNOWN]: You know, shit. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, I agree. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, by apparently that, you know, because no matter how hard I try it, I can't change. [UNKNOWN]: I just, I can't for a little while, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: but then the needed power to continue on I didn't have you know so the cool thing is the process of that book and those steps is to enable me to find a power greater than myself that will solve my problem you know and so we did that man but that was a long journey from for me to connect with a power greater than myself.

48:02 [UNKNOWN]: took a lot of exercises, a lot of talks, but it worked. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And number one, the need was there, because I knew I didn't have the power on my own, but didn't confront all this stuff in my mind, because you mean I grew up in the South Man. [UNKNOWN]: In the churches, I'll just say where I grew up was, man, it was like, if you do this, you're going to air. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You even think about it. [UNKNOWN]: You're going to air. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I mean. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, man. [UNKNOWN]: Well, guy like me, I'm screwed from the beginning. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because there is no, I mean, number one, I'm doing it. [UNKNOWN]: And number two, you're asking me not to even think about doing it, like I don't have a shot.

48:43 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: It's like saying, whatever you do, don't look down. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So I mean that's how it always had been and now I really needed this god thing. [UNKNOWN]: And I knew that I hated him. [UNKNOWN]: And I knew that he didn't want anything to do with me. [UNKNOWN]: And I knew what I had learned. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean in the churches? [UNKNOWN]: That I perceived to, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And that time, men and I was just screwed. [UNKNOWN]: You know? [UNKNOWN]: And the good thing for me about like working through it with the steps, I mean, and that being the tent was it wasn't anything that I had to get. [UNKNOWN]: Like I didn't have to get God in my life. [UNKNOWN]: get sober. [UNKNOWN]: What I had to do with get rid of the things within me that was blocking me off from the sunlight of the spirit.

49:26 [UNKNOWN]: So it was about getting rid of, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because if I'm 75% full of crap, man, you start dumping good stuff on me. [UNKNOWN]: Uh, it's on crap, man, it ain't staying. [UNKNOWN]: Ice cream on a pilot. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, and the thing was for me when it came to humans, like, all my life, man, I've had people love me. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, love me. [UNKNOWN]: Like, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They were kind of rough people and stuff, some of them, but still, man. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, they, they love me. [UNKNOWN]: And, um, but always what will go on in my mind was, is like, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you love me, but you wouldn't love me if you knew me. [UNKNOWN]: You wouldn't love me if you knew what I had done. [UNKNOWN]: So that was always this wall between me and them.

50:08 [UNKNOWN]: So no matter how much love that they were pouring into me, it could never penetrate that thought that I had in my mind. [UNKNOWN]: Maybe that thought was true, maybe it was, and I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: But what I do know is that that thought was impenetrable. [UNKNOWN]: You know, to anyone else who's loved to, from externally to include God, you know what I mean in my mind. [UNKNOWN]: knocked the wall down to receive God's love unconditionally. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: So it was a process of it. [UNKNOWN]: In the beginning of it was it was and when I see a process, I'll we got time. [UNKNOWN]: So I'll break it down, man. [UNKNOWN]: Because it was tedious. [UNKNOWN]: It was like that guy that was my sponsor. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: He said, Tom, you know, uh, he said, uh, he said, how are you with God?

50:50 [UNKNOWN]: I was like, yeah, hey, God. [UNKNOWN]: He was like, okay. [UNKNOWN]: That's cool. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, hey, but we need him. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm like, yeah, I know that, but I got an issue here. [UNKNOWN]: You know, he said, all right. [UNKNOWN]: So what we're going to do is like, hey, we pray, man. [UNKNOWN]: That's because he was the deal when I asked John to be my sponsor. [UNKNOWN]: He asked me two questions. [UNKNOWN]: He said, are you willing to go to anything for victory over alcoholism? [UNKNOWN]: And are you willing to do whatever I ask you to do? [UNKNOWN]: And I won't ask you to do anything that's not in the book. [UNKNOWN]: Like sure, man. [UNKNOWN]: Sounds good. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I had nothing else [UNKNOWN]: And so, so those were the rules. [UNKNOWN]: So when he asked me to do something, you know, by choice, I do it, you know, so he said, hey, he said we pray and he said, and guys like us, we need to be on our knees when we pray, you know, because I'm so freaking arrogant.

51:38 [UNKNOWN]: I'm so smart, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And he said, we're not doing our rules thing. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, and it's an act of humility. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's a physical act of, because I didn't have a humble bone in my body. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And that was what I was in need of. [UNKNOWN]: And I had none of us. [UNKNOWN]: He said, so we praise. [UNKNOWN]: So in the morning, whenever you get up, you get down on your knees and you ask for help. [UNKNOWN]: Help you make us over through the day and then he said if you make it through that day without a drink, then at night you get down and you say thank you, is that can you do that? [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, yeah, man, I can, I mean, that's not much to ask, you know, so I was doing it, but the only reason why I was doing it really, I didn't want to. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't think it would work, it had never worked before.

52:21 [UNKNOWN]: I was just doing it because that's what John was asking me to do, man, and so, but that was every day and every night I knew he was going to ask me every day, hey did you pray, you know, and we started developing relationship. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't want to let him down, you know, because I'm a team guy. [UNKNOWN]: Like, I'll destroy myself, but I'm not going to let you down, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, I'm not going to let the team down, you know, and so, um, [UNKNOWN]: So I was making sure and doing that, and then there was this other piece of it, man, where it's called Spirituality, which I had never heard of. [UNKNOWN]: Again, I was just raised in church and stuff, and we're reading the part in the book, you know, and Spirituality, you know, it says is that, you know, religion tells you who God is.

53:01 [UNKNOWN]: Like, if you're a Christian, and you say, who is God? [UNKNOWN]: They pull out a Bible, and they say, this is who it is. [UNKNOWN]: You know, if you're Muslim, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They pull out a crayon, so religion tells you who God is, spirituality says that you decide. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so whenever John told me that, you know, he's like, man, he's like, hey, you know, you can have your own conception of God. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, no, you can't. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, well, he's because I was raised in the church, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I said, he said, what do you mean? [UNKNOWN]: He's like, you can't do that. [UNKNOWN]: And he said, why not? [UNKNOWN]: I said, well, you can't, and everything I know is like, he's like, hang on a second.

53:42 [UNKNOWN]: He's like, so you're going to use the one thing that you've never been able to attach to as it means to not try something new. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, yes, kind of stupid. [UNKNOWN]: Now you said it that way, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And so I was like, OK, so we went through an exercise. [UNKNOWN]: And the exercise was, he said, two sheets of paper. [UNKNOWN]: Once you eat a paper is blunt, you know, I mean, both blank sheets of paper. [UNKNOWN]: Once you eat a paper right down anything you ever heard of God. [UNKNOWN]: everything, everything, your grandmother said that preachers in your mind, like every he's continued to hell, he loves your grace, mercy, hell, firebremps, and all of it at mind dump on one sheet of paper. [UNKNOWN]: God, he's like on the other sheet of paper, right down on one hand, like looking for God, like if God could be, [UNKNOWN]: anything that I would want him to be.

54:27 [UNKNOWN]: What would I want that to be? [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, and don't ask for a red Corvette because he's not fricking Santa Claus. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so it was like, okay, so I did that exercise. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, and I had a bad attitude, and I didn't think any of this would work. [UNKNOWN]: I was too far gone. [UNKNOWN]: I was too damaged. [UNKNOWN]: You know what? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, like, I'm just... [UNKNOWN]: Somewhere down in me, I have some hope, but it's not in my conscious mind, man. [UNKNOWN]: I'm just kind of going through the motions, hopefully this is going to work, and I was also terrified that it would work, because then what I'd be, you know, that's a quandary, you know, and so I did that, so I did my homework, you know, and so I come back to Johnny's like, okay, give me the sheet of paper with everything on it. [UNKNOWN]: gave it to him and he crumples it up those and a thing and I'm like, who's my other homework, you know, and he's like, no man, that's yours.

55:13 [UNKNOWN]: He's like, uh, he said, whenever you, uh, whenever you pray, because we'd already established us praying, he's like, whenever we're praying, that's who you're praying to. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, [UNKNOWN]: Okay, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, then I'm, because I can argue with your opinion of God. [UNKNOWN]: I can argue with who your God is and your description. [UNKNOWN]: I can pick holes in it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm fairly intelligent. [UNKNOWN]: I can do all that stuff. [UNKNOWN]: But I can't with my own. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And that was the exercise was me, right? [UNKNOWN]: If God could be whatever I would want him to be, what would that be, and I had that down there. [UNKNOWN]: And then when he was said, okay, when you're praying, that's who you're praying to. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, man, that can't be real.

55:55 [UNKNOWN]: I didn't have anything to lose, you know. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, because in my mind, it was like, you're going to hell. [UNKNOWN]: This is never word God hates you. [UNKNOWN]: You two, you know what? [UNKNOWN]: All of that nonsense just going on. [UNKNOWN]: And so man, and that's where I began to, I began to just grow this idea. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then the other thing was, is like in the A.A. book, you know what tells you, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Where you're looking for God, like where he's gonna be. [UNKNOWN]: Because everybody's looking for God, I mean, people, where is he, where is he, where is he, where is he, he's here here in Ateoji, and there where he is, and it's the one place that I never looked, and that was within myself. [UNKNOWN]: Because for me, if there was any God that was worth anything within me, I wouldn't have done some of the things that I'd done in my life, you know, and so then that book in my sponsor, you know, we were confrontin' all these major concepts, you know what I mean, that were belief systems that were in my head.

56:49 [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, so I had this idea, I had burned in some practice reps and doing this prayer thing, you know, and now I have this concept and now when we read that part in the book, when I said, you know, deep down when every man, woman, and child is a fundamental idea of God. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, and then, um, and I said that to him, I was like, he's like, man, do you understand what that's saying? [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, yeah, man, I say in that God is, is in me, you know, that's what I mean, and he's like, yeah, I was like, man, there ain't no way. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, well, that's what it says, man. [UNKNOWN]: And he said, so you got to look, he said, but we're just going to keep going. [UNKNOWN]: So that's the thing about this stuff. [UNKNOWN]: You just keep moving through the next one, and it's action items, right?

57:30 [UNKNOWN]: So it's spiritual action, not just meditating for hours or doing, not that there's anything wrong with that. [UNKNOWN]: But you know what I mean, that's not what we're talking about. [UNKNOWN]: We're talking about doing spiritual action, for action type guys, which is us, made for it. [UNKNOWN]: So then the next thing that we did is like, man, I was having to confront all these different things that we do, you know, and like a fist step. [UNKNOWN]: A fist step basically is just where I take a four step and I dump my whole life into it. [UNKNOWN]: It's a format, a good bag of nuggly, and then a fist step and what tell you about it. [UNKNOWN]: All those things I said, I would take to the grave, right? [UNKNOWN]: So, but in order for me to do that, I had to do steps 1, 2, 3, 4. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, which, you know, are building blocks for developing this relationship with this God that I now have.

58:15 [UNKNOWN]: The God is I understood him. [UNKNOWN]: And so I just finished that what my God looked like because now you know I had some reps in doing it. [UNKNOWN]: I had a concept that I could live with and I could make this approach and be comfortable with pray into this one that I wrote down on the paper because that was pretty cool and then I needed a visual for it for me because whenever I pray and close my eyes sometimes it was like a pack of freaking crazy people would come you know what I mean jump out and you know. [UNKNOWN]: You just never work, it's stupid, you know, how are you even doing this? [UNKNOWN]: You always feel, and everything, you know, in all of that nonsense, you know, and that came from certain aspects of my life. [UNKNOWN]: But I needed a visual for it. [UNKNOWN]: And for me, it was a 56, right?

58:56 [UNKNOWN]: So Rambo was a thing. [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah. [UNKNOWN]: When I was growing up, you know, in a like a real one. [UNKNOWN]: And so, so I had this image when I closed my eyes, you know, if this Rambo dude, [UNKNOWN]: covered in mud and blood and you know and mean and he's got a 60 in this hand again on 56 not a 240 but 60 you know in this hand and you know him he's smoking the bad guys and in this hand he's got a baby you know what I mean that he's protected and you know what I mean and that baby is me you know me so now I had like a complete [UNKNOWN]: Package of something that I could identify with, something that I could approach, and something that that I knew would want to work with me, you know what I mean, and me with him.

59:42 [UNKNOWN]: And so that was all just the internal aspects of it, you know, and the next things were demonstrating that demonstrating that which would be faith, you know what I mean. [UNKNOWN]: And there's no way to demonstrate, you know, what you truly believe in, then, active courage, you know. [UNKNOWN]: You know what nobody prepares you for when you leave the military, it's the fact that the structure that kept you sharp, kept you focused, kept you performing at a high level, disappears overnight. [UNKNOWN]: And then life piles on, family, business, responsibilities, you're grinding just as hard, but something is off. [UNKNOWN]: You're hitting your 30s or 40s in the body that used to bounce back overnight is now taking days. [UNKNOWN]: The mental clarity that you had, the drive that you had, is just not the same.

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1:01:08 [UNKNOWN]: For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off for life, plus free shipping, and three free gifts at mengodomars.com. [UNKNOWN]: That's mengodomars.com for 50% off, and three free gifts when you check out. [UNKNOWN]: After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. [UNKNOWN]: Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. [UNKNOWN]: And the first, like, big act of courage that I had to do was what it's called a fist that, you know, with my sponsor. [UNKNOWN]: And that is, as I've got my list of all the dirty rotten nasty things and the good things, you know, my whole life. [UNKNOWN]: And now I mean you're going to set down and we're going to talk about it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and I had a couple of things on there that were xx dot dot.

1:01:50 [UNKNOWN]: Like you don't know what that means. [UNKNOWN]: I know what that means. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so that way I completed my list my inventory. [UNKNOWN]: They call it in But man, but now I'm not going to tell this guy because if I tell this guy these things man here's what's going to happen You know me number one. [UNKNOWN]: We're going to fight And she was going to call the law. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know what I mean is going to something you want to share now [UNKNOWN]: No, hell no, you know what I mean, and then uh, and then, you know what I mean, then this dude was like my only friend, you know what I mean, because all my, all my buddies from the past, like that's who I was trying to stay away for a man, and nothing on them, you know what I mean, they were good people too.

1:02:33 [UNKNOWN]: We were just, I had to not drink man, and I couldn't be around them, not because of them because of me, you know, I knew if I told the guy these things man, like, [UNKNOWN]: it's not where we're over like our little relationship we have going on you know it's going to be done man for sure and can I ask sorry we're they things that we're agree just to him or just you thought we're so bad that you would lose respect for you. [UNKNOWN]: Um, they were a greatest to me and to others, you know, of me and where, but not to him directly where. [UNKNOWN]: No, nothing to him directly. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no, no, he's completely removed from it. [UNKNOWN]: You just thought that they were so bad that he was. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: Like the best thing, like even for me, like a guy like me, if I would have met, and then again, we're talking about in the mindset that I was in, which is an angry violent.

1:03:21 [UNKNOWN]: You know, a lot of stuff, and it's like, man, the best thing you do with this dude right now is just go ahead and kill him because Too far gone, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Damage goods, kind of guy. [UNKNOWN]: And so we got to those part, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And we're like five hour, six hours into this thing, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I mean him. [UNKNOWN]: So I was like, no kid. [UNKNOWN]: I've got pages and pages, everything. [UNKNOWN]: Every memory that I have in my life that came to my mind is like in this notebook. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, and I never really understood relationships, man, like healthy ones, you know, my parents were divorced. [UNKNOWN]: My, you know, I was never in a healthy one. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I just didn't really know, you know, and so I'm actually having this relationship, which is not a sexually intimate, but an intimate relationship, you know, sharing emotions to all that's for you.

1:04:10 [UNKNOWN]: You know, an intimate relationship with another man, which was [UNKNOWN]: I mean, when I go, you don't talk about how you feel, you know what I mean, like we're like living life like together and like talking all this stuff. [UNKNOWN]: So anyway, I mean, I'm just like, damn, man, I'm going to lose this guy as a friend too, you know, and then I'm just going to be kind of on my own again, trying to figure it out, trying to stay sober and I was like, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: And so I didn't know if I was going to do it or not until we got to the end, and I'm like, screw it, man, I'm going for it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I told him these things, you know, and I'm, [UNKNOWN]: And they were like sitting closer together than me and you are, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Again, I have in my mind what's going to happen next, you know?

1:04:51 [UNKNOWN]: And what I don't have in my mind is it not going any other way. [UNKNOWN]: you know what I'm saying like this is the only way that it can go because I'm only using me we always project ourselves on to others right I mean through my lens is all that I'm looking you know and through my lens that's what I would do right you know and so man and so I I told him everything you know and so he looks at me and he's like hey uh he's like Tom is that is that everything? [UNKNOWN]: I [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, you know what I mean, and it's like he's like are you sure because we would read and we mean the only way you can screw up this fist step that is called is by remembering something and leaving it out, right?

1:05:34 [UNKNOWN]: Because if I hold on to one of those worse things, [UNKNOWN]: The 99 other things that I gave away are irrelevant because I'm going to hold on to the roses, the thing that's killing me and try to move forward with it, it's not going to work. [UNKNOWN]: You see what I'm saying? [UNKNOWN]: It's just not logical. [UNKNOWN]: And I wanted to stay sober and I said, if I didn't do this, we were quite sure to drink again. [UNKNOWN]: I don't want to drink anymore, so I gotta do this bullshit. [UNKNOWN]: So anyway, I told him he's like, is that everything I'm like, yeah, man, that's everything. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, okay, stand up, like, here we go. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Again, this is like, this is what has happened. [UNKNOWN]: You think he's about to take a swing on that? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, man, I mean, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm gonna let him go first because that's just what I normally do and then get real.

1:06:20 [UNKNOWN]: You know what, I mean, this is like a usual thing for me. [UNKNOWN]: He looks at me dead in the eyes, man, and we're this little po-dunk ash trailer in the middle of nowhere. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean that he's living in, and he said, Tom, I know everything there is to know about you. [UNKNOWN]: And he said, and I love you. [UNKNOWN]: And he gave me a big ol' hug, and I knew that he meant it. [UNKNOWN]: Man. [UNKNOWN]: And so that destroyed, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Anything, like I did not have a conception of that happening. [UNKNOWN]: So I didn't really know what to do. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm awkwardly hugging you. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, but what I can't, then I'm, it's like that man looking into me in my eyes.

1:07:05 [UNKNOWN]: And I knew that he met what he said. [UNKNOWN]: And he had already demonstrated his love towards me and his actions. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: As we've been meeting with me every fricking day. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: He's taken all this time out of his life just to help me. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: He's like, he's already demonstrated all that. [UNKNOWN]: So I knew he met what he said. [UNKNOWN]: And that was unimaginable for me. [UNKNOWN]: And so that was between all those different things, man, and then me cleaning up my past and all internal work. [UNKNOWN]: I haven't, you know, said, you know, made a men's to anyone, external, this is all just the internal work over a few months, you know, and almost every day.

1:07:45 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was working, I was still an active duty, you know, doing my day job, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then I was all about this sobriety stuff, because I was single. [UNKNOWN]: and I couldn't be around you know what I mean and I wanted an opportunity to get back with my wife and I knew that that would could not happen if I was with another woman you know what I mean you know what I mean so so I was like legitimately single so I was just working. [UNKNOWN]: and trying to be sober and learn how to be sober and everything. [UNKNOWN]: And so, between those sequence of events of, you know, of getting a connection with a power greater than myself that I could live with, and then these humans, [UNKNOWN]: Demonstrating these actions of like no kid in love and then me continuing to make a man's and clean off my side of the street Yeah, man the I recovered from a hopeless state of mind of body [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man.

1:08:44 [UNKNOWN]: So back to your point. [UNKNOWN]: I'm never cured of alcoholism all that, but I am recovered mean in ED and what I've recovered from is a hopeless state of mind and body because that's what I was when I started the journey man. [UNKNOWN]: I was absolutely hopeless. [UNKNOWN]: Mind and body. [UNKNOWN]: And at this point in time through all of those spiritual actions, which mainly came from other humans. [UNKNOWN]: Um, for sure, directed by other humans, none of my ideas, and, um, you know, to me, I was unable to gain contact, you know, and have this relationship, you know, to me with a power greater than myself, which became God, which for me was not the Christian concept of God at that time. [UNKNOWN]: What enabled me was the things, you know, Rambo Jesus, we call them people call them now after it tells the story is, uh, [UNKNOWN]: is that it was really rooted in like Native American concepts and stuff like great spirit like stuff because anytime I thought about Jesus man it just brought up you're going to you know all the all the what I come to found out stuff there's absolutely not true yeah [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, it's not, you know, but I couldn't, you know, make the approach to that God.

1:09:52 [UNKNOWN]: I just, it was either because I was too angry or was too much shame and guilt and remorse and everything, but anyway, I had to go this spirituality route, you know, [UNKNOWN]: You know, a couple years later, I came back, you know what I mean into Christianity, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But at the beginning, man, if you were trying to push Jesus on me, man, it wasn't going to work. [UNKNOWN]: And not because of you, but because of me and my life experiences, you know, and that was, again, we all have such a different past, man. [UNKNOWN]: And we all [UNKNOWN]: you know, our creator knows what we need, you know what I mean, and uh, some people need that way and that way. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's why we have all these different ways of getting to the same place.

1:10:34 [UNKNOWN]: Man, which is super cool. [UNKNOWN]: And all the people that try to say that there's only one way, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I know that that's what they believe and that's okay, but it's not true. [UNKNOWN]: I know what a fascinating and powerful journey into here. [UNKNOWN]: You walk through all of that. [UNKNOWN]: So even though I've not experienced that or been through any of that, it's somehow relatable. [UNKNOWN]: You know, to hear you tell that story, it feels like I'm in it with you almost in a very strange but powerful way. [UNKNOWN]: Not so much from a clinical definition, but from the time you full-blown decided, okay, hey, I'm in this for the long haul and I'm going to stop drinking until you actually felt like you were recovered about how long would you say that was?

1:11:19 [UNKNOWN]: For me, so that was September, September the 2nd and 92 is whenever a story is a September October and November. [UNKNOWN]: So within five months, you know, and a lot of work, I mean, a lot of really hard work, that transition happened where I was no longer hopeless, I had hope in my life. [UNKNOWN]: And I knew, I mean, I knew, no one had to tell me it, but I knew that if I kept doing the things that I was doing, that if I kept taking the actions that were I was taken, [UNKNOWN]: I would continue to get that results and it just kind of was a knowing, you know what I mean and I also knew if I didn't do the things that I knew I'm supposed to do, I'm going to get the other results too.

1:12:12 [UNKNOWN]: You know, there was nothing was mysterious anymore. [UNKNOWN]: There was no little fairies flopping around, helping you not helping me. [UNKNOWN]: It was like, no man, if I do these spiritual actions, I'm going to get this spiritual results, you know. [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, man, and that, you know what I mean, and then the 12th step is talking about that's where you take other men through the steps, you know, and help out, you know, I mean, so it's just that full cycle. [UNKNOWN]: So I started sponsoring guys, you know, it's probably six months, so we're, you know what I mean, man, and then, um, [UNKNOWN]: And man was I don't fire, you know what I mean because I had a God in my life. [UNKNOWN]: I've never had a God in my life before And it was unlike anyone else's I came to find out because we'd all said what's your God like what's your God like my man's like that You know me, but not in I thought it's just looking what you have on that piece man No one was in debating on who's was what it was like [UNKNOWN]: Holy crap that works for you like that would never work for me, but hey, we write on you know, and so just started learning about all that man I have that in my life and then man Then I started doing good things man.

1:13:15 [UNKNOWN]: I was like Was not so much that I started doing good things because I did good things throughout my life, you know, but I Stop doing the things that I considered bad and Man whenever you stop doing the things that make you feel shame-gilt and remorse [UNKNOWN]: you eventually stopped feeling it you know what I mean now some of the things some things wrongs that I did you know to other people you know can't be undone you know what I mean so some of the the greatest things that I can do is to stay so we're and to not do those things again you know what I mean and if any opportunity I could amend that I would you know and um [UNKNOWN]: because beating myself over my head with guilt, you know what I mean is not helpful to other people, you know what I mean?

1:13:58 [UNKNOWN]: And, um, but I mean that was a long process, but to your point, I mean it was a short process of my sponsor told me that time you can get well as fast as you want to, we just have to follow the directions, right? [UNKNOWN]: So that just meant [UNKNOWN]: that as fast as we could move through those directions, man, and do them to the best of my ability, I could get the results said I was one and that's what happened, man. [UNKNOWN]: It's spider myself. [UNKNOWN]: So I was my intention, because we all like talking about intentions, right? [UNKNOWN]: My intention was to prove to John and everyone else in those rooms that this program would not work for a guy like me. [UNKNOWN]: that when I told him that I was that big of a jerk you know what I mean I was like John this is what I'm gonna do it and when not if this doesn't work but when this doesn't work I'm gonna go get drunk and he said deal you know what I mean because I'd always heard you got to want it you got to you got to mean it when all your heart and soul you know I was the opposite I was like and with that intention of proving that it wouldn't work I got sober in the miracle happened man [UNKNOWN]: You know, speaks volumes to the program, you know, because to me, the intention and what you want to get out of something generally dictates the outcome or largely dictates it, you know, did it work in terms of once you felt recovered, did you get your ex-wife back and is that here you're married to now?

1:15:18 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, but I didn't, but it was a, again, man, it was a total, it was a total God thing. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was doing my part, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I was, I had put myself in a situation, you know, I wasn't in a relationship. [UNKNOWN]: You know, me, so I situated myself for that to happen. [UNKNOWN]: I, you know, was not trying any manipulation. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: No lie. [UNKNOWN]: And you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I was, for the first time in my life, like being my, like being true to myself and to others, you know? [UNKNOWN]: went drinking, you know what I mean that unraveled all of that. [UNKNOWN]: And as a byproduct of that, you know what I mean, we ended up getting back together, man. [UNKNOWN]: And we're still together now. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, this year, November, I mean, I'll make 36 years.

1:16:03 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, we've been there a lot together, man. [UNKNOWN]: How many men have you sponsored at this point in your life? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I didn't keep count, man. [UNKNOWN]: But right now I have four, but I mean, throughout the, I mean, 34 years, man, as long. [UNKNOWN]: It's been hundreds. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Sponsored hundreds of guys and work with thousands of men and women, you know. [UNKNOWN]: I feel like I've said, wow, like a hundred times already so far. [UNKNOWN]: I've got to stop saying I'm here about it in the comments. [UNKNOWN]: I'm sure it's an incredible and powerful and inspiring journey to hear you walk through all that. [UNKNOWN]: I am curious, once you're kind of refiring on all cylinders with the recovery process, did that translate into an even better professional career for you?

1:16:50 [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely, man. [UNKNOWN]: Um, because I was the old school gyna guy, you know what I mean with the third party art. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: And if you had a problem with that, then you should have got a different job, you know what a mainly PTSD, what like in whatever, all that stuff, I was that guy, you know, quit being a whiffs, kind of deal, you know, should have thought about it before you got in all of that. [UNKNOWN]: I was that guy too, man. [UNKNOWN]: And, um, but the thing was, is that I learned and I lost track of your question. [UNKNOWN]: Well, just the, yeah, I mean, so kind of, and I understand where you would have worry that, like, man, I'm doing so well professionally and also a partying hard.

1:17:35 [UNKNOWN]: If I get rid of the partying hard thing, is that going to make me, is that make the wheels come fresh? [UNKNOWN]: I did, especially. [UNKNOWN]: I was afraid that if I had got, because in my mind, what that looked like, [UNKNOWN]: This is just what was in my mind, man, is in order to give your life to God and be sober and give your life to God. [UNKNOWN]: That means you're going to put on a white robe, become a missionary and live in South America and never have sex again. [UNKNOWN]: That's what, as weird as that is, that's what that meant in my mind. [UNKNOWN]: And I didn't want that, man. [UNKNOWN]: I wanted to be a warrior. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't want that, but I was willing to risk that happen and tend to go back to drinking. [UNKNOWN]: So what happened was, is I always say as man, I didn't get sober and become a hippie.

1:18:19 [UNKNOWN]: You know, man, I got sober and became a more lethal warrior than me and man, that is what enabled me to do the things because I was still in the 80s, second, you know, only two years in the 80s, second. [UNKNOWN]: So once I got sober, man, and my insides were matching my outsides, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I was still making mistakes. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was still pretty rough around the edges, but the quality of my mistakes were much better. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and they were further apart, you know, and, but man, but... [UNKNOWN]: So having the relationship with my wife, you know, begin that process, you know, which was a big long process for both of us, you know, an empty, any relationship. [UNKNOWN]: But then with the military man, it was just like my mind was clear, my body was clean, you know what I mean?

1:19:03 [UNKNOWN]: And I was focused, man. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm a super-liferous, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like I was, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: 30 years and that's what I wanted to do. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's all I ever wanted to do with my life. [UNKNOWN]: It's one thing when we're talking into, you know, at my sons when they were growing up, you know, and their comparing me and my wife's military experience, you know, kind of with theirs is like, look, man. [UNKNOWN]: y'all didn't come from where we came from, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's like when the army has to straighten your life out, man. [UNKNOWN]: Like you're not doing well. [UNKNOWN]: You're not doing well. [UNKNOWN]: If all the same comes your parents, you're in trouble. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: But you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's how it was with us, and it worked well.

1:19:45 [UNKNOWN]: But back to the question is like, no, man, being sober and having gone in my life is what enabled the rest of, just on the against separating it. [UNKNOWN]: not counting what it did on my personal side, which was wonderful. [UNKNOWN]: But man, militarily, dude, like I, next level, you know, my full potential, you know, was able to be unleashed. [UNKNOWN]: That's incredible. [UNKNOWN]: So now you're firing on all cylinders, recovery-wise, everything is kind of going, as good as it can be, how did the rest of your time at 80 seconds go and then what was the thought process, the catalyst, et cetera, and the pathway transitioning into special forces?

1:20:27 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And so there was a [UNKNOWN]: So during that time, there was some key things that molded me. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't even know that molded me at that time, but they impacted the rest of my career. [UNKNOWN]: And that was, my Patoon Sergeant, not with that I was in the golf with. [UNKNOWN]: But when I came back, we got a new Patoon Sergeant, and he was Vietnam vet. [UNKNOWN]: And at that time, in the early 90s, there was a significant amount of Vietnam that's still in. [UNKNOWN]: Like, my battalion sergeant major is like a, like, dude, just look at, like, remember General Abbasade? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, he was my brigade commander when I was in the 80s. [UNKNOWN]: I ain't no doubt. [UNKNOWN]: McCristo, General McCristo, yeah, he was a battalion commander in there like do was like that when I was it was like I was in the 80s second, but these are the men and then the brigade sergeant major of my battalion, my battalion Hobart [UNKNOWN]: Oh, oh, Garth was his name and he was like in Charlie Rangers the book all these books.

1:21:29 [UNKNOWN]: I had read like there all the around me So yeah, I was in the 80s second, but that's who I was with super high-calber leadership. [UNKNOWN]: Oh my god, man And again, even though it was conventional 80s second man It was like I mean, it was in my mind bad ass at that time, you know, and I loved it, man I am but my first puttune sergeant he [UNKNOWN]: He said to him to me, so I've been to Ranger School, you know what I mean and I'm all that. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I went to PODC right off the bat, you know what I'm a corporal, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Just waiting on points to get my E5, you know, and you know when he brings me in he's like, okay man, what tell me tell me what it's like to be an NCO, you know what I mean?

1:22:11 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I just came from PODC, you know, the leadership course on what they call the Navy, but it's the basic leadership course, you know, and to get your E5. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like textbook answer, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's mission, health welfare of the troops, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, but what does health and welfare of the troops mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, well, you know what it means, beans and bullets, and means, hey, you know, with their finances, you know, how many family members they have, you know, you have your squad leader card, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: This got all that info. [UNKNOWN]: And so I've been like spitting all this information. [UNKNOWN]: I just came out from the school and everything.

1:22:51 [UNKNOWN]: He's like, yes, not what it means at all. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, when you talk, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I just had all, he's like, that's not what health and welfare of the troops means at all. [UNKNOWN]: Okay, okay, what does that mean? [UNKNOWN]: He says, health and welfare of the troops means is that you give them the ability to survive and thrive in combat. [UNKNOWN]: That's what that means. [UNKNOWN]: Well, that's a whole different ball game than beans and bullets in knowing he's like, yeah, all that other stuff, yeah, as a good leader, you know that stuff and you handle all that, but that's not what health and welfare of the troops mean. [UNKNOWN]: And so the reason why that impacted me is then from that moment because I mean, it just seared inside of me because of the truth of it, you know what I mean?

1:23:35 [UNKNOWN]: Coming from a Vietnam that, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That you know what I mean the truth of one man to let you know me and given me that information like Boy, you know what I mean kind of like from that moment forward man. [UNKNOWN]: It was about that's what my life It rest the time in the 80s second for sure is like, okay, my job is not all these other things is yeah I got to know all this other information, but man [UNKNOWN]: give them the ability to survive and thrive and combat, and I had just had a glimpse of what combat was, but I just knew that meant you trained for it and everything, so, and that carried me from then until today. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I still have the same, you know, a different mission, but the same thing, health and welfare of the troops, you know, for them to thrive and survive and combat, except now it's in the war at home, instead of the war overseas, you know, but it's [UNKNOWN]: Like so that was a huge thing, and man, two date, the best NCOs, some of the best NCOs that ever worked with in my entire military career were in the 82nd.

1:24:33 [UNKNOWN]: Those crusty E7s, man, and first sergeants that were there, but I just couldn't stay there. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was just, I had max. [UNKNOWN]: I'd been to Pathfinder School, I'd been, like I said, jump master schoolman, all these, every school that I could have gone to aerosol, you know, everything, and, um, [UNKNOWN]: load master course like any kind of training was available that I did it man and um but then another cool thing that happened as far as it again shape and stuff that happened in the 80s second that carried me all the way through was you know talking about the um spiritual kind of journey a little bit with that piece of it [UNKNOWN]: But also, military is in, in 95, I tried out for the 80 seconds, Beth Ranger team, because they won it in 94, and usually, you know, only Ranger Regiment wins that.

1:25:18 [UNKNOWN]: So, they were going for another round, and they had all these tryouts and everything, and I was always in really, you know, always pushing myself physically and everything. [UNKNOWN]: And so, made that team, and then, but, you know, but only a few teams would go to the competition. [UNKNOWN]: So, they're going to make cuts, you know, throughout the months. [UNKNOWN]: Man, and you were like special duty to just work out. [UNKNOWN]: I'm sorry, I'm like crazy, exactly, right? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was 25 years old, so unbroken, fully healthy, like frickin' machine, you know. [UNKNOWN]: But I met these two dudes, and they were officers, and same age, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I was in CEO, they were officers, you know, appropriate amount of officer, hey, you know, in there.

1:26:01 [UNKNOWN]: and but it was uh... but man but these were guys were like locked walk-and-talk-and-live and breathing same ages me christian dudes and during that time just in my life where i was growing spiritually i was praying you know because i'd read my bible i would break up with my bible because you're supposed to read the bible you know [UNKNOWN]: But it's just kind of thing to do, you know, but I would read it, man, and I say, okay, that's cool. [UNKNOWN]: I don't get it, but yeah, yeah, I mean, okay, conceptually, okay, but like nothing, nothing good, just kind of like read. [UNKNOWN]: So I started really praying, I was like, man, is this true? [UNKNOWN]: because I had a relationship with God.

1:26:42 [UNKNOWN]: Not as God treat it like I mean, but like is this whole thing true, this Jesus thing? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, it's Son of God and all these things that I'd learned growing up and everything, but I did it, and all this contradictory information, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But now I had this no kid in relationship with a God of my understanding that I could bring this honesty to, you know, and so I just I was praying that a lot. [UNKNOWN]: I was just like, [UNKNOWN]: You know, not in questioning, but like, is this true? [UNKNOWN]: Like, and if it is, like, hey, let me know because I'm really unsure, you know, but hey, thanks a lot, you know, I mean, gratitude lists miles long, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, so, but during that time frame and my life, God has always worked through humans in my life, occasionally one-on-one, but it's usually through other human beings, man.

1:27:30 [UNKNOWN]: That's God was skin on it, I call that, and so then, [UNKNOWN]: Uh, I met these guys, man, and then, um, but they're talking like me, acting like me, but they're a little bit different, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm married, they're not, but they're like, yeah, man, I'm not, you know, dating anybody, I believe, you know, hey, I'm gonna find the right person, I'm gonna get married, hey, I've screwed up in the past, not judging. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I would say? [UNKNOWN]: These different kind of words that most Christian people had ever experienced, you know, they were different. [UNKNOWN]: They weren't preaching, nothing, and then they'd say stuff like, hey man, we're going to get together, you know, a couple of us, you know, and read a revival, have some discussions and stuff.

1:28:11 [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, [UNKNOWN]: Hell yeah, you know what I mean I was like because that's what we would do with the a big book we call big book studies You know you pull out a piece of the book Yeah, you share on it how it relates to you and then you open it up and you talk about you have conversations about how it's working in your life or not working in your life But practical application of information, you know, and um [UNKNOWN]: And so we would do that, and I was like, and then they would be like, hey, we're going to meet in so as those garage and stuff is like, mess this underground, my Jesus freak thing, or I don't know, I'm kind of down, you know, and so Christian Nirvana. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, whatever man is going on. [UNKNOWN]: And so, and I'm just, and, you know, me and these guys were training together. [UNKNOWN]: So I'm, I mean, we're together all day, every day.

1:28:54 [UNKNOWN]: So I'm like, [UNKNOWN]: their true colors are coming out you know whenever they're whipped and understress and they're there's the same man like they're the same dudes respectful you know what I mean and so I did that you know we trained up for best ranger did best ranger I did it I'm proud to proud to admit that I came in 13th place and I was just happy to finish that thing man you know I was a survivor I wasn't a competitor but it was it was awesome but man but that was [UNKNOWN]: But again, just, what that exposed me to was this different caliber of warriors, you know what to mean, that are even, you know, from the conventional units, you know what to mean, most of them.

1:29:34 [UNKNOWN]: And then, and so, and I knew there was always more in man, like I said, I was ever wanted to do as being range of regiment, and that never happened, but I knew I couldn't stay in the 80s, second anymore. [UNKNOWN]: You know what to mean? [UNKNOWN]: I was just like, you know, [UNKNOWN]: I can't stay here. [UNKNOWN]: But I didn't have, I never wanted to be in special front, heard of special forces, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And Delta, but no one ever even said anything, especially back then of that. [UNKNOWN]: So I knew I wanted to stay in, though, you know, and it was like, OK, well, I guess I'll give this a try. [UNKNOWN]: So I went to selection in 1995. [UNKNOWN]: So I did Best Ranger was a great train out for selection.

1:30:14 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And the funny thing was, man, it's just how badass one of those guys was that was in there. [UNKNOWN]: One of the officers was, so that almost that same group of us that competed in the summer of 95 or spring, you know, of 95, we went to a special forces election in December of 95. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so we were still in great shape. [UNKNOWN]: And so a lot of us were even on the same team when it came to team, weak and stuff, and there. [UNKNOWN]: But, uh, [UNKNOWN]: And so a lot of you just went over that. [UNKNOWN]: The one guy, one of the Christian dudes that, you know, on I didn't close that story out. [UNKNOWN]: Sometime during that four month time frame, wasn't like single conversation.

1:30:55 [UNKNOWN]: It wasn't like an epiphany, but somewhere through that process of doing those Bible studies of, [UNKNOWN]: talking, sharing, all this stuff. [UNKNOWN]: I just end up coming to know that that was true. [UNKNOWN]: The whole Jesus thing. [UNKNOWN]: It wasn't a singular moment. [UNKNOWN]: It was a bill. [UNKNOWN]: No, man. [UNKNOWN]: It was just like not a bright light. [UNKNOWN]: Like, oh, that's it. [UNKNOWN]: It was just somewhere something happened over that time where I didn't pray that anymore. [UNKNOWN]: Because like I said, I was still praying and even during that time, I would say, like, hey, I know you've sinned me these two guys. [UNKNOWN]: I believe you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're showing me this. [UNKNOWN]: So I mean, I have all of my conversations with my God. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's all he wants for me is be honest, and so, and so in some way during that time, that prayer just stopped, man, and it turned into like, yeah, I know now, you know.

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1:33:14 [UNKNOWN]: And it didn't change anything, it didn't. [UNKNOWN]: It was just more information of top of what I knew and what I knew was true was that when it comes to God, man, like all the hair fire and brimstone stuff, right? [UNKNOWN]: Is everybody can believe what they want? [UNKNOWN]: I don't, I don't know, argue with anybody, but what I know through my life experience is that God is only grace and love and mercy and kindness and strength, because if there was a scorecard, [UNKNOWN]: If there was a scorecard, I would not be alive. [UNKNOWN]: No, it would be. [UNKNOWN]: I would not have a wife. [UNKNOWN]: I would not have children. [UNKNOWN]: I would not have a grandson. [UNKNOWN]: I would not have all these wonderful beautiful things in my life.

1:33:56 [UNKNOWN]: If there was a scorecard. [UNKNOWN]: And so during that time, that just ended. [UNKNOWN]: But that one of those guys, man, he made it through SF selection. [UNKNOWN]: and he just wanted to see if he could make it. [UNKNOWN]: He got selected and whenever they're like, yeah, you can come to SFEs like, no, no, no, thanks. [UNKNOWN]: I was wrong. [UNKNOWN]: I was wrong. [UNKNOWN]: Who does that, man? [UNKNOWN]: But he did. [UNKNOWN]: And anyway, it was just that caliber of human, man. [UNKNOWN]: I've always threw out my whole career and life personal side and professional. [UNKNOWN]: I've just been presented with these amazing human beings, man, [UNKNOWN]: If I chose to listen to them, you know what I'm going to take their information and put it into practice. [UNKNOWN]: I'm amazed in things happening in my life.

1:34:37 [UNKNOWN]: So you make it through a special forces selection and the entire time that you were there was all pre-911. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: In terms of kind of that next step-up caliber of guy-wise, guy-wise, [UNKNOWN]: Um, where did you feel like you fit into the pack? [UNKNOWN]: Is it 80 seconds? [UNKNOWN]: It sounds like you were kind of excelling and well above average. [UNKNOWN]: Did you feel that same way once you were a green beret and what did that chunk of time prior to 9-11 look like? [UNKNOWN]: So me getting in special forces made it through selection. [UNKNOWN]: Like I said, did really good at selection. [UNKNOWN]: Still was the hardest thing I've ever done.

1:35:19 [UNKNOWN]: At that point in my life. [UNKNOWN]: Everything was a buildup, the hardest thing I ever done was the last thing, and then the next one. [UNKNOWN]: So that was the hardest thing, made it, but because I was super prepared because of the best render, and it made it into SF, did the Q course, and then started off in, you know, my team is seventh group. [UNKNOWN]: But again, just with the company and men that I was always around, three of the guys that were on my team were El Salvador Vets, you know, me from the Iran Contra, and all of that. [UNKNOWN]: So I mean, everywhere I went, you know, the second was the Vietnam guys.

1:36:00 [UNKNOWN]: Now even in group, I've got guys that, you know, experience. [UNKNOWN]: you know a lot of combat and so but it was always starting at the bottom again I mean I was always in good shape you know physically but I mean just knowledge wise and then you know pre 9-11 you know it was there was no war stuff you know me so literally we were doing all [UNKNOWN]: For an internal defense, I'll feed missions all training missions a good thing that I really love to teach and I think pretty decent at it You know, and so it appealed to me. [UNKNOWN]: So I I love the whole special forces mission No, wasn't one of those guys that left [UNKNOWN]: I was stupid, I'm gonna leave, man.

1:36:41 [UNKNOWN]: I loved it, the whole concept of, you know, training up folks, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then eventually going to war with them, that was the only thing that I didn't get to experience. [UNKNOWN]: But, you know, experience to everything. [UNKNOWN]: and like three trips to Columbia, I clip trip to Ecuador, D-minin and Nicaragua, you know, I mean like all this crazy stuff and it enabled me to keep growing in my sobriety, but also it enabled me to keep growing as a warrior, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And in seventh group at that time, if you didn't speak Spanish, where at least could teach in Spanish, your course, like you were worthless on the team. [UNKNOWN]: So, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was a language immersion, a lot of training.

1:37:24 [UNKNOWN]: And again, it was just going to changes places. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That was cool. [UNKNOWN]: But I freaking loved it, man. [UNKNOWN]: Again, the only thing that I missed out on it was actually going to war with them. [UNKNOWN]: But I loved all of it in there. [UNKNOWN]: You still speak Spanish? [UNKNOWN]: Okay, not you could get by if you had to. [UNKNOWN]: I could get by. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, probably like a third grader. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's good enough. [UNKNOWN]: Well, a third grade in that regard is about 11th grade education here in the United States these days, but [UNKNOWN]: So with that, it's interesting that, you know, so many of the Generation X and early on post 9-11 combat that have, I would say, a unique and, you know, kind of, not just fascinating, but I think productive in an unintentional way, because obviously we couldn't have predicted it.

1:38:22 [UNKNOWN]: But to your point of being able to work on yourself as a man, as a warrior, as a human being, as a shooter, I think experiencing years of that in a non-war time, but high level from a stress and competency standpoint training environment, [UNKNOWN]: It's like now, you know, you've got this kind of group of guys who are in their late 20s, early 30s, who have, you know, a decade of really, really high level training before they're ever actually having to use it in combat. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: Like, that's a huge difference between the guy that graduated Marine Bootcamp nine weeks ago, and that finds himself in Baghdad on a two-way shooting range.

1:39:05 [UNKNOWN]: You know, and I think, you know, again, like there's no way we could have predicted or intentionally prepared it that way. [UNKNOWN]: That buildup and that kind of slow roll forging process was super beneficial for kind of our generation of combat vets going into the post 9-11 era. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah man, totally agree. [UNKNOWN]: I mean it was basically, for me it was other than the Gulf that little blip, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was 10, almost 10 years of preparing, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But at a high level. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and I'm really like for guys like us, it's the only way to survive peace time. [UNKNOWN]: You know, military is to continue to push yourself.

1:39:46 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: If I were to just try to stay in a job or you know, when the normal route, that's why I don't think I would have, [UNKNOWN]: I would have made it, you know what I mean like mentally out of just lost my desire for everything. [UNKNOWN]: Because that's what really enabled me to stay as motivated for as long as I was because it was just continuous, you know, hey, cannot go to the next level, cannot pass the next school, cannot, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Hey, where are my limits physically, mentally, emotionally, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And for me, meanwhile, you know, having a wonderful, [UNKNOWN]: home life, you know what I mean, next thing you know I'm having kids and you know never I mean always wanted to have kids but it was like it's something that would never really happen again back to my earlier stuff but you know now my now my military life and my home life match you know what I mean it's just it's just wonderful and that's where I think a lot of the unique experiences that I have [UNKNOWN]: You know, you know, a lot of our population, you know, to mean post-military going to whether it's warriors or, you know, whether it's all these different events, these different therapies and stuff, you know, they're learning to live right land.

1:40:58 [UNKNOWN]: I was doing this stuff when I was 25 years old. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I went through combat, I went through, to pull them all these different things without, you know what I mean with having to deal with what was going on, you know, not medicate myself throughout, like some of some of the guys, [UNKNOWN]: And again, no hit on him, right? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: What did teaching and training in South America and a non-combat role teach you that being in combat never did? [UNKNOWN]: Man, it, uh, what did it be in a combat? [UNKNOWN]: Come on, it's just so different. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, uh, it's so awesome. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's almost like, hey, how do you make something that's not that great, great?

1:41:40 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, just being honest, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because ultimately, for every, you know, warfighter, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: The goal is, [UNKNOWN]: to be in war. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like that's the thing. [UNKNOWN]: So it's like, okay, if we're not at war, like it was the next closest thing, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And to me, that's where it, um, but again, man, I was super grateful that I came up in the conventional army first because I knew what suck really was like being a private in the 80s. [UNKNOWN]: I can't, you know, in a foxhole in the desert, you know, the whole thing. [UNKNOWN]: So I knew what suck and really looked at. [UNKNOWN]: So I kind of kept working [UNKNOWN]: But I would never forget, you know, and then going to the special forces training, getting to my team and now going on my first deployment, you know, not combat deployment, but you just call them deployments, you know, show up to Columbia, you know, the war on drugs is going on, the FARC.

1:42:33 [UNKNOWN]: Like, I mean, there's a lot of dangerous shit going on, you know, at that time was a big deal. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: It was a good potential of, again, trying to get into the arena, [UNKNOWN]: everybody in special forces anyway was trying to get to first group or seventh group because at least you know those were the dangerous places because the other parts you know weren't for the most part you know and um and so but on that first one man I'll never forget we're going to this little village to do a fit mission it was just gonna be a I don't even remember what it was overall [UNKNOWN]: It was like a recon POI or something like that, but also I was at 18 Charlie Explosive Guyne had a ton of explosives, so it was going to be a whole big box of that.

1:43:23 [UNKNOWN]: But I mean we landed, first we get in this little C-27 kind of thing with all of our stuff in there, and it's all I forget which [UNKNOWN]: And I forget which government contractor it was that was running it, but was it mill air? [UNKNOWN]: You know, these guys are all ex-military, ex-SF guys. [UNKNOWN]: The normal thing, you know, working for these companies, wearing their Hawaiian shirts, you know, mean the music's playing in the back of the C130, you know, me as we're flying over Colombia, you know what I'm like. [UNKNOWN]: I'm here man, you know what I mean like I'm like this is starting to hear fortune at son play in your in your head Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was you know, and then we had to take off our gear and load it on to these They called them pedanias, but as those Boston Wailers with the 60s on the side the 50s up front, you know, and oh yeah [UNKNOWN]: because that was only way to get to the base we were going to because the road was mind you know what I mean so you can use the road so I mean it was legit you know I mean danger nothing happened but I mean still you know just kind of doing that stuff man and um and again it was super it was super challenging and tough you know I mean teaching and Spanish you know and really learning how to do that learning what it was like to do on the team [UNKNOWN]: to be on the team and to do my job, you know what to mean again.

1:44:38 [UNKNOWN]: So it was kind of like first joined the 82nd at the bottom, you know, and then by the time I left the 82nd I was on the top of the food chain, you know, and now I was, hey, back to the bottom, working my way up, you know, and I'm just working with incredible, you know what I mean, men, you know what I mean, just like incredible men, you know, in all ways, you know what I'm saying, and it was, uh, [UNKNOWN]: But I love my time there, and so I say six years on the team and then, um, and so like I said multiple deployments. [UNKNOWN]: I was going more, uh, pre-9-11 in seventh group than I was post-9-11 at the, you know, yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: I was going between eight and nine months out of the year.

1:45:19 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I'm not that surprising even to me. [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah. [UNKNOWN]: It was because if we weren't, and I was always on really good teams and really good teams train hard. [UNKNOWN]: So if we weren't, you know, to mean on a four to six month deployment, you know, meaning that's not a long most of them were then, then we were, you know, mean at JRTC, we were, you know, training in the woods or we were hitting the range. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, there was just [UNKNOWN]: We were constantly training because, again, back to me, just being forced in it, I've always had a great team sergeants, you know, just real go-getters, you know, because that's not the guys in special forces, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They had different experiences on other teams, you know, where, you know, the old fat SF guy today, you know, they were on the cool guys, you know what I mean?

1:46:04 [UNKNOWN]: That's the one I despise, the most cool guy teams, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They look like all of that, but so all of the seal teams, then you despise. [UNKNOWN]: But it was, but I did, man, I love my time there, but again, I got to the, I was, you know, getting to the end of it, and it was like, dang, man, one other motivator whenever I was leaving 80 second, two was, you know, about five years, four or five years in the army anyway, you'll get conventional army, you'll get picked up for drill sergeant or recruiter, right? [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, man, I don't want that. [UNKNOWN]: So that's when I went to special forces. [UNKNOWN]: and then of in special forces five to six year mark, you know, then they pull you a lot of times the sweat or you could go to recruiting.

1:46:50 [UNKNOWN]: So I was, so that was, so like I was at the six year mark and I was a senior E7, been on a team, you know, for a long time, went to when I went to, you know, the advanced non-commissioned officer course at that time was also the operations and intelligence course. [UNKNOWN]: combined into one and so it gave you a qualifier of being, you know, the Intel on the on the team team level, you know, and so I was already, you know, in line to not take a team, but you know, be able to be a two IC and like I said, and I loved it, but I didn't want to have a regret and not try and selection. [UNKNOWN]: But for the unit, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Never thought I'd make it. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, [UNKNOWN]: But at what point in that six-year time frame at Special Force Group, were you legitimately committed to trying out for Delta?

1:47:42 [UNKNOWN]: What time frame, the, uh, that's a good question. [UNKNOWN]: When did I start thinking about it? [UNKNOWN]: So it was, it was probably only at that, uh, I was about it year five. [UNKNOWN]: whenever I knew him like man my number's coming up yeah you know what I mean and any any good team guy doesn't want to ever leave the team you know what I mean yeah it's yeah but it's just so interesting that um instead of like [UNKNOWN]: you'll become a green beret to avoid being a recruiter or drill instructor and you'll then say you know what I'll go try to be at Delta Force so that I don't have to be a selection instructor or whatever. [UNKNOWN]: It's like that's such a not backwards but just unexpected motivator to go to those units in particular.

1:48:27 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah but truly for where my mind really was at was going to [UNKNOWN]: Because again, in my mindset was, it's like, how do I spend a maximum amount of time? [UNKNOWN]: You know, because the further you get away from the team, is my head's off to the guys that, you know, me and continue on the path, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: I just never had any desire to have, you know, to be a company star major, battalion star, you know, and in it none of that stuff. [UNKNOWN]: So I was really thinking hard about going more it. [UNKNOWN]: And that way I could, you know, spend more time on the team, a little bit better live in, a little bit more money, you know, kind of deal. [UNKNOWN]: But more team-time is really what I was concerned about, and then, I mean, going to Delta Man, I mean, truly was like, I just don't want to regret it and I try and.

1:49:18 [UNKNOWN]: Now I trained. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, we had just come back from a trip from Ecuador, so I didn't, I had about a month and a half, trained, you know. [UNKNOWN]: Now I was already in really good shape. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And we were in some mountainous areas, so it was, uh, [UNKNOWN]: You know, me now, I was able to train at a higher level, but not if I would have given myself a three-month training program to go to a selection and went anywhere close to that. [UNKNOWN]: So it was just like, I was even trying to sabotage looking back on it, you know, even when I turned in my paperwork, because you know, I mean, whenever they're asking all those hard questions, [UNKNOWN]: I'm not saying that anyone else does this or not, but there's maybe certain ones someone hypothetically might say, well, I'm not answering that one.

1:50:06 [UNKNOWN]: You know, hypothetically, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: On some of those, I was just like, yeah, I'm an alcoholic. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, my dad was alcohol. [UNKNOWN]: You know, all the mental health stuff, you know, all of this. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I had these problems with my wife. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like I was being so honest. [UNKNOWN]: And look, and I kind of was because it was, you know, next thing, you know, is like, yeah, don't never, I won't even get a selection date, so then it comes back, you know, however many months it was, you know, come back is like, yeah, like, yeah, you can come, you know, to mean into September or whatever it was, sometime in the end of September, 2001.

1:50:50 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: How does the, or how did your special forces unit receive that news? [UNKNOWN]: Were they stoked for it? [UNKNOWN]: Or was it kind of the, Do you just always, I don't know how it is in Navy, but it was this, even that from when, everywhere it was, it's always the same, like even going to jump from, from the 82nd SF, half of the people would be fucking traitor. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And the other half is like, hey man, go for it. [UNKNOWN]: Same thing in group, man, [UNKNOWN]: Half of the guys were like, hell yeah, go for it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then the other half of the book and trader. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's interesting because I cannot, or I can obviously only speak from my experience, you know, but it's quite the opposite.

1:51:34 [UNKNOWN]: It's overwhelmingly positive. [UNKNOWN]: Wow, but but I think that maybe the reason is because the seal teams are just the seal teams, okay You know, so dev group is is just an extension of the seal teams. [UNKNOWN]: It's I think viewed far less as a different or you know totally separate unit Within the Navy special for special operations ranks then say Ranger Greenberry Delta like I think they're compartmentalized enough to maybe where you see see more of that Maybe but I always [UNKNOWN]: unless the dude was like had a terrible reputation which was rare the occasional guy it maybe like dude that guy got you know was going to green team like what what you know yeah but I would say generally overwhelming you know positive support for him yeah man I've never looked at that yeah because I think it is so [UNKNOWN]: So it's so separate.

1:52:27 [UNKNOWN]: So separate. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Whereas if you're at dev group, everybody who's at dev group was a seal for it. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: You know, they couldn't have been 80 second managers or green braids or a couple of just an extension of it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Whereas even though there's a lot of things that's similar in special forces and Rangers, you know, it's still very, very, very different. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: It's so wild that you went through selection during 9-11 or, you know, in that same month, were you actually in selection on 9-11? [UNKNOWN]: No, it was right after. [UNKNOWN]: No, I was already slotted for it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So it was, it just kind of how it unfolded. [UNKNOWN]: What was going through your mind as 9-11 is transpiring, no you're going to selection for Delta Force to that make you even more motivated [UNKNOWN]: No, what made me more motivated to make it?

1:53:21 [UNKNOWN]: Because again, I wanted to get back to war, especially after what happened at 9.11. [UNKNOWN]: You didn't know what it means. [UNKNOWN]: So now it was like a different way, way different. [UNKNOWN]: You know what made 9.11 happen. [UNKNOWN]: So it was about justice, revenge, whatever you want to do. [UNKNOWN]: So my thing, my decision-making processes, how I'm going to get there, the quickest. [UNKNOWN]: If I would have been in fifth group, I would have never, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I would have never went to selection, man, because I would have, like I said, I wasn't running away from group, I would, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But when 9-11 happened, it was like, okay, I knew seventh group wasn't going to rotate into the mix for quite some time, you know, and so I was like, hey, the quickest way to get there is, you know, a through here.

1:54:07 [UNKNOWN]: In terms of what you kind of knew of what to expect in selection, and it's a very, I would say of all of the special operations selection courses that is by far to this day still the best kept secret in terms of what happens. [UNKNOWN]: Of course, a fair bit of information, but it's still, I think you guys do probably the best job at, [UNKNOWN]: not divulging much of what goes on there other than kind of really high level were very broad spectrum stuff. [UNKNOWN]: But from what you knew to expect versus what you actually experienced was there a huge disparity did anything totally surprise you. [UNKNOWN]: And the thing that was totally surprising to me was how professional it was.

1:54:54 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I hear that sounds weird, but I hear that a lot. [UNKNOWN]: Because man, I mean, because I've been in not that special forces was very professional, the Q-course, like, right, you know not at any of those things. [UNKNOWN]: It was just the next level. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it was, it was the next level. [UNKNOWN]: Man, M, as far as going through it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was kind of, [UNKNOWN]: Even when no one said it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And a lot of courses that have been and all courses other than this one that I've been through, there's always a cadre factor. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean there's there's a politics. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, well, the way there's politics There's some some some instructor gets the cross hairs on you know what I mean or someone else and you're like oh There's always man it it was the the major thing there that was kind of known to me without anybody Say it is however good or bad I do here is 100% on me [UNKNOWN]: It's not going to be, oh, this guy didn't like me, or this didn't, you know what I mean?

1:55:54 [UNKNOWN]: It was just situated to where it's like, man, it's me against the clock against the standard that is completely and totally unknown to me. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, which is that? [UNKNOWN]: You mean I already had reps in that in SF selection, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because you don't know the standards of the given day. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's any certain day of this that may happen or that may happen. [UNKNOWN]: But you don't ever know, are we on the short run or are we on the long run? [UNKNOWN]: You know, at SF selection or the short rock or the rock rock? [UNKNOWN]: So if there's still that factor, but having being able to deal with that, because there's people, and it's not like better people or worse people, I mean, everybody's wired differently.

1:56:38 [UNKNOWN]: Like I was wired. [UNKNOWN]: Like I wouldn't have made it if I stayed in the conventional army, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I would have eventually had to get out because that had been mind-melted, numb or something. [UNKNOWN]: But there's also guys that, you know, the conventional mind of guys that are super successful and bad at equally bad ass warriors as the wars have shown. [UNKNOWN]: With the Medal of Honor, guys, the Valor Awards and all that no matter what unit they're in, man, they're bad asses. [UNKNOWN]: But they're wired differently, man, like they need structure, they need, you mean they do not do well. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Unknown circumstances, I believe it helps figure out those people that, you know what I mean?

1:57:20 [UNKNOWN]: Hey, that enjoy problems, even enjoy problems solving. [UNKNOWN]: And don't need to be told what to do. [UNKNOWN]: Um, within Delta Force selection, you mentioned that the standard is, is the great unknown. [UNKNOWN]: Was there any ability for you to, to be able to gauge kind of where you stacked up amongst the other, uh, prospectees or, is that also completely, really unknown? [UNKNOWN]: Go in and complete the unknown, yeah? [UNKNOWN]: That's wild. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, other than the guys getting together, what do you think? [UNKNOWN]: I think I did pretty fast. [UNKNOWN]: I think I was kind of slow. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, I messed up on this one. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But other than the shit house, lawyers going on, trying to figure things out, you know, everybody's gaming it and trying to, you know, figure out the unfigured out of all.

1:58:07 [UNKNOWN]: But no, it's completely, completely un, it was to me anyway, completely unknown. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Do you remember or know how many guys started versus how many guys actually made it? [UNKNOWN]: No, I don't, man. [UNKNOWN]: I know it was super small amount. [UNKNOWN]: Like, if we started in, I think it was like 120 or something, maybe 11, you know what I mean, something to do? [UNKNOWN]: You don't mean, and that's just through, you know what I mean, the selection part, which you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That just, that just gets your foot in the door, man. [UNKNOWN]: Then you got a, then you got a, [UNKNOWN]: earn your key. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Obviously, you didn't go through OTC prior to 911. [UNKNOWN]: Do you have any concept of what 911 changed in terms of the selection pipeline or OTC if anything?

1:58:52 [UNKNOWN]: I don't. [UNKNOWN]: No, no, yeah, because I don't have that point of reference, but if I had to bet on it, not a damn thing changed, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, or if it did, it was like minimal, yeah, but I should have just with me not knowing. [UNKNOWN]: In terms of OTC, it's self comparing it to everything else that you'd done, and especially even actual delta selection was that now, again, the hardest thing you'd ever been through. [UNKNOWN]: Just every time you go through the next thing. [UNKNOWN]: So it was like this succession of, like you said, start off a new guy, build yourself up to be, you know, top of the food chain, within that room, [UNKNOWN]: you know, meaning then moves to the next level.

1:59:35 [UNKNOWN]: Start at the bottom. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and I think that's what stops a lot of seeing your guys that say would would go to the next level, say go to unit selection or, you know, me or something more, is they don't want to, they don't want to be the new guy again, man. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, because that sucks, you know, me no matter, no matter who you are. [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, I mean, some of them are like, don't fear a failure that kind of kicks in, but I think with a lot of the guys, they're just like, you know, man, I'm, [UNKNOWN]: I don't, I didn't even have to address that until I made it because again, I never thought I would make it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, next thing, you know, I made it, like, which is amazing, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I think a lot of the guys, that's what it is, it's like, so now you're starting back at the bottom again, and that includes in the training pipeline, you know, because now I would do it, this different level of training, you know what I mean with this different level of warriors, you know what I mean, that have this different level of experience, you know?

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2:02:03 [UNKNOWN]: That's just, and all of it comes down to throughout all the people that I was with is like they're what they have experienced, you know what I mean. [UNKNOWN]: And so these instructors that we were, you know, where the guys that have experienced, you know, and all the other stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's such a unique and special, you know, selection and pipeline and training and I'm always fascinated at any time I get a former unit member on to talk even if it's just a little bit about that process. [UNKNOWN]: from a mental pressure standpoint going through OTC was there, you know, ever a let up in that kind of just over the top mental pressure on you to perform and be perfect every minute of every day or whatever, just have a moment of every every day.

2:02:54 [UNKNOWN]: You know, as you move along, I mean, [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean then that when they're kind of getting a better picture of you not having set at the table whenever they decide but you know what I mean it's a weekly thing man whether deciding who's staying and who's going you know what I mean and it's all based on performance but I mean there is some instructor factor in there with that you know because now the more human piece but man whenever it comes to the the mental pressure [UNKNOWN]: For me anyway, other guys might have been skipping through there again. [UNKNOWN]: I haven't never been like the top of the food chain kind of guy. [UNKNOWN]: I've always been, I'm the dude that makes number one place work harder than they ever wanted to.

2:03:38 [UNKNOWN]: I rarely have been occasionally got into that spot, but most of the time it's just me making them work harder than they want to. [UNKNOWN]: So here it was again, you know what mean I'm just... [UNKNOWN]: Just, you know, some days I'm barely hanging on and other days I'm right in the middle and then occasionally like, Oh, well, I did really good in this or that, but man, it was actually like had to. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, going in and out of those gates because again, man, I was, you know, I've been on Fort Bragg my whole career. [UNKNOWN]: All three units were at Fort Bragg, so prior to getting out out there, it was like, man, I had rocked by it, ran by it, drove by it, you know, for 10 freaking years, I've been like, haha.

2:04:18 [UNKNOWN]: Trying to see through the walls and gates and now I'm actually coming through the gate and then like you said all that pressure Like this could be my last day here. [UNKNOWN]: This could be my last day here. [UNKNOWN]: You know as a pressure wise and then I just kind of flipped it in my head is like [UNKNOWN]: Okay man, well, if it, and it could be my last day here, but if it is, this is going to be the best frickin' day I've ever had. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, so I'm going for it. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, the pressure's still there, but just that internal one, you know, whenever you're just, you kind of release that internal pressure, and you know, just transfer all that energy into the performance. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Instead of worrying and, oh my gosh, you know what I mean, just like whatever the task is ahead of me, like crushing it, you know, and, uh, [UNKNOWN]: I want a great way to look at it.

2:04:59 [UNKNOWN]: Same question as selection. [UNKNOWN]: Do you recall ballpark how many guys started OTC and how many finished? [UNKNOWN]: From the group that I was in, there was probably like about the same number, about 12 guys, and it all be made it or. [UNKNOWN]: No, no, that's how many if it was somewhere real on that was numbers between 17 started 12 making it something Around that have to look at the picture And that does include Yeah, that was including some direct support guys and still and the operator number thing is is a pretty close-held Seeker. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, not something guys typically share [UNKNOWN]: No.

2:05:42 [UNKNOWN]: Is the reason for that purely from a kind of class of, like, you don't want anybody to know how many guys have made it through, or what's- Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's the intent of it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I think in the real intent, everybody knows that it does exist, but it doesn't exist, that whole kind of thing. [UNKNOWN]: And so, I mean, it's just the normal thing is why I'm not mentioned in the numbers to know the scale and size of it. [UNKNOWN]: I'd love to know what was going through your mind once you made it through OTC and you kind of came to the intern realization that you are a Delta Force operator and you're walking into your first day at a squadron. [UNKNOWN]: What's going through your mind?

2:06:23 [UNKNOWN]: Man, I'm excited. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean as far as, so like super, super excited because I did, I did well. [UNKNOWN]: You know, me and again, I wasn't at the top, but man, I was, you know, and again at that time, military wise, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I was kind of an older guy. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, I was 32, you know, I mean 32 years old, senior E7, you know, so military wise, I'm over the whole thing. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I, with all that, you know, the Special Forces experience, you know, a lot of experience and stuff. [UNKNOWN]: So I was pretty, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you [UNKNOWN]: I was pretty confident, not cocky, obviously. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, but confident, and hey man, I can be a good teammate, you know what I mean?

2:07:07 [UNKNOWN]: But it was so funny, man, because whenever I was in special forces, I was on a CQV team. [UNKNOWN]: They specialize back then, anyway, they specialize like a climate team, halo team, dive team. [UNKNOWN]: Well, they also had like, hey, you've close quarters battles is what you focus on. [UNKNOWN]: And I was on that team, the whole six years that I was in. [UNKNOWN]: And so that's what we did in our training time. [UNKNOWN]: It wasn't in the woods, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Was that, you know, we were good, man. [UNKNOWN]: And everybody that we could compare ourselves to was like, we crushed them, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: In training, you know, obviously. [UNKNOWN]: And so in my mind, I'm thinking like, man, I got this.

2:07:50 [UNKNOWN]: Well, and it's like, how much faster can they actually be? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I didn't have a point of reference on how you can improve, because I knew how hard we trained. [UNKNOWN]: I knew how, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: How physicality wise. [UNKNOWN]: I knew all these different things. [UNKNOWN]: And it's like, [UNKNOWN]: Okay, it's probably a little bit more, you know what I mean, but not much, and then God that never came out of my mouth, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That was just in my head, because then like you said walking into that team, man, and the team mean, and like some of those guys, you know, they've been on the same team together for three, four years, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Maybe even a little bit more, and if not, they've just come from another team, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, you know, so coming on to a seasoned team like that, who had just finished, you know what I mean?

2:08:33 [UNKNOWN]: Like this was 2002. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, they said they had just come back from the, you know, to mean all the initial stages of the war. [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: So I was super, super excited, you know, confident that I, you know, is going to be able to be a good teammate man and like, so going into it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then that's whenever, you know, the guy's the two I see, you know, he's like, uh, [UNKNOWN]: You know, he's, you know, when we're doing our first runs, you know, go get ready, I put it on, let's go through the house. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I'll train him, and, you know, and it's like, hey, yeah, just throw Kim lights, and you know, and try to keep up, you know, and I'm like, whatever, you know what I mean, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then, and then I, and then I saw the light.

2:09:15 [UNKNOWN]: you know what me where is like because what was I doing for the next, you know, hour and a half throw on cam lights and trying to keep up and it was just, it was just mind blowing to me man but again that next level of, you know, in there there's, there's no, there's no level above that, you know what I mean and I'm so, [UNKNOWN]: So, yeah, man, it was, I mean, the level of camaraderie, like these guys, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're just kind of, a guy's just looking in a certain way and people are moving. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They just see how each other's like little, how they're positioned in, they're doing, and people are acting on it, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And under nods, you know what I mean?

2:09:56 [UNKNOWN]: Everything, man, and it's, uh, [UNKNOWN]: But again, here I am, new guy, you know what I mean like having to learn. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I brought a lot to the table, but when it came to, you know what I mean, the level that what was being played there, yeah, I mean, back appropriately, because it doesn't matter who you are or where you came from or what you did, you start, you know what I mean at the bottom, which is absolutely like the right thing to do. [UNKNOWN]: In that same realm, as a senior E7, where would that put you in kind of the grand scope of the entire squad or like where are there guys that were as low ranking as saying E4 or is E5 kind of the minimum?

2:10:39 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think the standard now is, I think you have to be in, I'd like to go to selection this posted. [UNKNOWN]: I think you have to be in E5 with a couple of years in. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So there were guys that were E5s at the time. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that was guys. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, so I want to team. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, you'd have guys from E5 to E9. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, well. [UNKNOWN]: which is crazy, man, you know what I'm saying about this, that's why you can't compare or it's not appropriate to compare the unit to any other unit. [UNKNOWN]: It's just not fair, man. [UNKNOWN]: You get all the money. [UNKNOWN]: the only thing that you are doing is preparing for combat or income in my time frame anyway.

2:11:20 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I'm saying? [UNKNOWN]: There's no details, there's no boondoggle, there's no bullshit, stuff going on, man. [UNKNOWN]: You're either preparing for war with no money limit, you know, to mean if it's appropriate to train for war you're doing it. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that was the big thing, you know what I mean, that was the joke, it's like, [UNKNOWN]: Seriously, you know me because like this shit we would do in training [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because the whole deal and training is, I mean, if you're doing it right, it should be without people actually shooting at you. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, so that way when you hit combat, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's almost a little, you know, at least it'll be what you've already been done.

2:12:01 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: It's kind of going through the motion. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's not this big, huge thing. [UNKNOWN]: Except emotionally it might be, you know what I mean, but not in action. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: From the time that you first stepped foot in the squadron until you actually deployed how long [UNKNOWN]: I don't know what it's about. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know what it's got there's summer. [UNKNOWN]: Probably four around four months. [UNKNOWN]: Four months, that's pretty quick turnaround seems like. [UNKNOWN]: It was, yes, some guys just depend on the deployment cycle. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: During those timeframes, anyway, some guys may not, like some of the, some of the guys that I graduated with, they met their team in theater. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, wow. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, they got zero, perhaps.

2:12:41 [UNKNOWN]: That's some lines, the action right there. [UNKNOWN]: Good luck, right? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: She spent 10 years in Delta, he had 12 combat rotation, 40 months in combat, 32 of them with the unit. [UNKNOWN]: What does that rate of operations due to a man over a decade? [UNKNOWN]: A lot, but it was a man. [UNKNOWN]: And the wild thing is, is that again, back to, like, I'm super proud of everything that I did, a hand man, there's guys that make my little resume right there. [UNKNOWN]: when they've doubled that. [UNKNOWN]: But back to, I mean, not going to minimize my, but I just want to state it for the record, man, that even though that seems like a lot, and there's guys that have doubled that between, you know, me in the time I left and now.

2:13:25 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, so do it. [UNKNOWN]: So number one, man, because, you know, this is where I was talking about some negative stuff, whatever, but I want everyone to know you to know that, man, the only thing I regret about the military [UNKNOWN]: I mean, truly, man, like even with all this stuff, even if I knew all this stuff that was happening, I'd sign right up for it and do it again, man, because again, I was super life or true believer, you know, to me, like all that hook line and sinker, all of it, man, I was that idiot, you know, and, uh, [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, man, but all those things, number one, it was like living the dream, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was like back to again, me being sober, enabling me to execute on my physicality, my mindset, everything.

2:14:11 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's the only way that I could do that for me. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, some guys can do that, maybe, and still be functioned alcoholics. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so, but for me, that's what I enabled it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, it seems like a lot of guys are either super heavy drinkers or functioning alcoholics at the highest level of military service. [UNKNOWN]: Of course not all, but it's a very common thing. [UNKNOWN]: was there any pushback and or struggle for you as a recovered alcoholic in these units where that is a big part of the culture like was that ever like we're we're all the guys super respectful of where you were at with that or or did sometimes a temptation come from them to hey do just have one drink or hey the guys are going out you sure you don't want to come like like how did they navigate that and how did you [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so I got a bit of all of it, you know what I mean from the old school guys, the big thing for me was ideally is that, you know what I mean that the conversation never came around, you know what I mean as far as being in recovery, whatever is just new me is me and [UNKNOWN]: my resume and hey what I was doing on the job so I that was in the ideal world is like hey they would see my performance see how I act see how I behave see how I joke around see what's you know me like you get to know them you know me and then find out you know me and like hey I'm also you know hey don't drink and I'm going to help do it's out you know me and I'm in recovery and then they're like what the fuck [UNKNOWN]: and like you know what I mean they're like because again most people have in their mind just like I did of what that looks like you know what I mean and now call it or someone that's in recovery you know what I mean they have it most of the guys that challenged it hadn't seen someone like me like I say it as a funny thing but it's also kind of a real thing I didn't get sober and become a hippie

2:15:59 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean is like whenever a guy would challenge me, you know, was like, why don't trust people? [UNKNOWN]: I don't drink with. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, why don't trust people who have a fight with. [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, I'm fucking go outside and like, you know, so that rarely happened, but I mean, but I would be quick on the muscle with that because it was [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I understood that the only way we're going to get through this is to get through this. [UNKNOWN]: So I mean, I enjoy fighting. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So did everyone else there? [UNKNOWN]: Didn't anybody call your bluff on that? [UNKNOWN]: They did it, man. [UNKNOWN]: Because no one really expected it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it was usually with like, oh, we'll see. [UNKNOWN]: You know, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we'll see. [UNKNOWN]: But anyway, what always would happen is my performance and my actions.

2:16:40 [UNKNOWN]: And you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: There's like, oh, this is just a normal badass dude. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And he doesn't drink and helps other guys, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're struggling. [UNKNOWN]: So I ended up, so I experienced a little bit of all of it. [UNKNOWN]: Some supportive, some not supportive again, because I was that guy. [UNKNOWN]: the old guard guy, so I mean, I get it, man, it's just like you're never going to change stigmas, you know, you can't fight a stigma, but what you can do is change the narrative, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so that was my whole journey was to just let my actions and behaviors as a man on the job and off the job, [UNKNOWN]: you know to mean change people's perspective on like what it means with someone who goes to those meetings at night, you know, and those kind of things.

2:17:30 [UNKNOWN]: But it was, um, I've, I've experienced it all a bit through, but at the end of the day, even the people that, you know what I mean, try to nace a me up front, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I had a pretty good reputation and you know, I mean, at least a favorable one, you know what I mean as far as on the job, you know. [UNKNOWN]: Did you ever have any slip-ups or even close calls falling off the wagon, sobriety ones? [UNKNOWN]: Man, the early on, yeah, man, it was so to put it into perspective is, I've done a lot of hard things in my life. [UNKNOWN]: We've talked about a lot of hard things. [UNKNOWN]: Too date, the hardest thing I've ever done out of all those things was early sobriety.

2:18:11 [UNKNOWN]: because I didn't have a point of reference. [UNKNOWN]: I was trying to change my whole life. [UNKNOWN]: There was no reps in it. [UNKNOWN]: Everything was new. [UNKNOWN]: Everything was confusing, you know, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: So, so working through that, you know, to me kind of set me in the situation. [UNKNOWN]: Man, if I can figure this out, I can figure anything out. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, figuring that piece out really, really helped. [UNKNOWN]: Wow. [UNKNOWN]: Um, I assume being, being at that unit at that time, most of the time, was Iraq versus Afghanistan. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it was just the way they cut up the war, who I did a one-half-gennis stand and then the rest of them were all Iraq. [UNKNOWN]: Um, where is there a mission that stands out as being for you personally that the closest call, and operationally?

2:18:54 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, for sure, life-changing one, I still, most of the time, that's the one I'm dealing with today, even. [UNKNOWN]: Not in this moment, but, you know, but yeah, man, absolutely, it was, so just throughout the, and on this one, it was a three-day operation with the 80 second. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, again, kind of, how did that happen? [UNKNOWN]: Different scenario made that happen, but it was just a regular battalion operation. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean with us providing coverage in there. [UNKNOWN]: the 2006, and so again just a regular, so up until that part, which had been multiple deployments, again, it started in 2002, so now it's 2006.

2:19:36 [UNKNOWN]: So multiple deployments, man, and what I noticed about war, or I've noticed a lot about war, even from the World War II guys, the Vietnam vets, [UNKNOWN]: is I was really professional. [UNKNOWN]: Like it was just the whole thing was professional. [UNKNOWN]: You know, me and it was good guys versus bad guys. [UNKNOWN]: You know, me and on the field of battle and like that piece of it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It wasn't really that personal. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But then, like 2005, 2006, you know, we started losing a lot of people. [UNKNOWN]: It started losing friends. [UNKNOWN]: You mean so then shifts have like starting to get for me, and I'm only speaking for myself, you know, it's just starting to get in a little bit personal, you know what I mean where it wasn't just, you know what I mean, that thing.

2:20:28 [UNKNOWN]: And the reason why it was important was because it's like started not didn't change my actions or or what I did or didn't do, but just internally, you know what I mean to be like, yeah, I want to hurt them. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean kind of [UNKNOWN]: And so a lot of that was coming on loss of a couple of really good buddies and then for me there was a build-up to this to this mission, this date, you know what I mean even? [UNKNOWN]: Which was just like the 20th anniversary of it this month but it kind of wild that we're here doing it then I just started that but um whatever I guess if that's what we're going to do for the 20th anniversary you know but I um [UNKNOWN]: So the buildup was the things that have messed me up.

2:21:10 [UNKNOWN]: Man, wasn't the killing, wasn't the, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like all of that good guy bad guy stuff. [UNKNOWN]: I was made for it, man. [UNKNOWN]: Sleep good at night about it, you know. [UNKNOWN]: The things that messed me up, man, were American deaths, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, American blood on my hands, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, you felt like you were responsible for it? [UNKNOWN]: No, man, no, not at all, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I didn't, not in that aspect, because, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Our train in level, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm sure how it was with you, man, like, I mean, [UNKNOWN]: level of being a medic, you know, self-aid buddy, a man was that of a, I don't really know the comparison, but it's better than your normal medic.

2:21:52 [UNKNOWN]: You know, when we did all kinds of live tissue training, we did all, I mean, we're highly, medically trained. [UNKNOWN]: You know, we saw I had this in September, that September was my third mass casualty event. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I'd already been in two other ones, you know, to mean in each one of those, man, it was just the reality of, you know, meaning and being a medic, meaning like helping people, you know, some people living, some people dying, like I'm not a medic. [UNKNOWN]: I'm not built for that shit, you know what I mean like I don't have a medic's mindset I don't I'm not a doc, you know what I mean so I'm don't I'm not you're not well-versed in the compartmentalization of no hands No, you know like I don't you know what I mean now I can physically do the actions and you know of what and thank God You know what I mean I helped out a lot super proud I helped out a lot but that's the stuff that [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean that really, like, hey man, isn't worth it, you know what I mean?

2:22:51 [UNKNOWN]: And again, with me being an older guy, especially later on, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Some of these guys are, you know, fight us to had a kid when I was 18, like this could be my kid, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so it started questioning all, you know what I mean all that kind of stuff, but then just personally, you know, experience them. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Just for me, it's just different, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Be experienced. [UNKNOWN]: whenever it's a different ethnic, ethnicly, different country, different, you know, I mean, there's so many differences, almost like it creates a separation. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I know that they're a human being, and I've viewed them as human beings, but there's a lot of differences, you know what I mean?

2:23:31 [UNKNOWN]: But then whenever it kind of brings at home, you know, I mean, whenever it's one of your kind of deal, it just impacted me so much and I really don't, other than the reasons that I've mentioned, I don't really, you know, know why. [UNKNOWN]: Well, no, I do know why, man, it's because I care that much for them, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, uh... [UNKNOWN]: that whole, that whole year to survive and thrive and combat, you know what I mean and whenever. [UNKNOWN]: And it's somewhere it is a kind of a distorted thinking and it happened during this mission that we're talking about too is where, like in my mind, I had this idea totally unrealistic, but if I'm around, I can keep them safe, you know what I mean?

2:24:11 [UNKNOWN]: And a lot of times, when we were, especially when we were around other units, you know we were looked at too, like the big brothers, [UNKNOWN]: You know, we're good to go, you know, man, and then next thing, you know, I'm around all these guys, and I loved being that, you know what I mean, like actually being that, you know, being the guy that's able to provide that, you know what I mean was my whole life's work, you know, and so now, when these guys that I'm around, now like, again, not my fault, you know what I mean, like there's nothing that I could do to stop it, but somehow in my mind, [UNKNOWN]: you know, and I had this idea that man by this shouldn't have happened, which is unrealistic, but nonetheless in my head, you know, and so each one of those losses, each one of those, you know, those pieces of it, it just really, really brought it home, man.

2:25:06 [UNKNOWN]: You mentioned that was the third mass casualty. [UNKNOWN]: Do you know technically speaking what the number is to make it a mass casualty? [UNKNOWN]: I know for me, I can tell you my definition of it is when there's when there's more casualties that are in need of assistance than the people are that are assisting. [UNKNOWN]: They can give in. [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean like um and I mean I'm sure that there's a number that is in the meta again back to a medic's mind like that I don't have I'm sure there's a textbook answer for that but in my mind because I said those words when I said that definition to me it means like even in the first one that I was involved in it was about it was like I think it [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that was that was that was trippy to me, you know what I mean?

2:26:00 [UNKNOWN]: Like okay man this I'm working on this guy But this guy I like I can you can see what I need to be doing to that guy But I can't you know in that whole the whole you know me triage Meanants like basically triage means like you're picking who lives and you're picking who dies Like that's awful. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but none the less and there there [UNKNOWN]: It's I mean it's awful on a human level, but you know in that moment that's how it is man. [UNKNOWN]: That's called war. [UNKNOWN]: That's the rules. [UNKNOWN]: That's the game. [UNKNOWN]: Do it well. [UNKNOWN]: You know and and lucky for me. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't really [UNKNOWN]: I don't know if the decisions that I made saved one guy or didn't look, because I didn't technically know as a medic, you know what I mean, like, I chose wrong.

2:26:45 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I didn't have, thank God, I don't have that guilt. [UNKNOWN]: You know, but still none the last man. [UNKNOWN]: It was just like that first one, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was just like, wow, this is a lot, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, guys? [UNKNOWN]: The main thing is, with me throughout all of those things, when you see a grown-ass men reacting to pain and trauma and stuff, man, you know what I mean, lots of pain, lots of trauma. [UNKNOWN]: I'm sure you see it, man, when people are screaming, when people are yelling, you know me, and that's like, it's, and you've seen them just a little bit of go, and they were, you know, meat-eating, you know, the members, yeah, and now they're, you know, you know, [UNKNOWN]: It's all appropriate, and I don't say any of that negatively, you know what I mean?

2:27:31 [UNKNOWN]: I don't, I would assume myself to be the exact same way, you know, and none of the last man is just shocking for me, you know, it was like everybody I don't ever speak for anybody else, you might not have bothered anybody at all, man, but for me, [UNKNOWN]: like that one did it in the second one that I was involved in. [UNKNOWN]: I wasn't even there when it happened, but I was in 05, you know, in a more round, short version, a more round landed into a convoy brief in Ramadi. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean to say? [UNKNOWN]: you know me because they hey anybody with medical experience you know come to the cash that's what came out over the radio like what the hell you know so we go over there and man and that's what happened is like they're getting ready to do this really big uh... it was cbs national guard cb guys [UNKNOWN]: And they were getting ready to take all their equipment, you know, and a big huge convoy brief 50 vehicles, man.

2:28:28 [UNKNOWN]: Because you know a convoy brief, they bring it in and everybody. [UNKNOWN]: And the guys were doing the right thing. [UNKNOWN]: Everybody was kidded up, everybody, but we were in a dangerous, you know, area. [UNKNOWN]: And so, man, just a complete lucky money shot, man, more around the right in the middle of the man. [UNKNOWN]: And that equal 32 of them being metavacked out. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I want to say? [UNKNOWN]: It was like six KIA on that one. [UNKNOWN]: But man, but again, back to there was more people just bleeding out than there were people to fix. [UNKNOWN]: And it was, [UNKNOWN]: It was just over for me, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was overwhelming. [UNKNOWN]: And this is how I would describe it and since we're going down that road is that for me, what that looked like was the great thing about compartmentalization, the great thing about all those years of training, you know, and hardening myself up to the best I can in peacetime, of being ready for that, you know, in the moment performing.

2:29:26 [UNKNOWN]: Because I don't know if you experience this or not, but I experience multiple times in these casualty events that two include medic some of them because of the personal relationships with their platoons and with their folks, especially the conventional guys maybe, but not all of them, but some of them, you know, they would just [UNKNOWN]: get overwhelmed, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like psychologically that fall in a fight, freeze, fight, fight, freeze, fall in, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: All of that come to do, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then they would snap out of it and get back at it. [UNKNOWN]: But for us having the ability to compartmentalize and get to work, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And just to do and work, [UNKNOWN]: You know, that was really good, but once the work stopped, you know what I mean?

2:30:11 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know how many hours it was of loading guys onto the FLAs to take over to the Chinatown to, you know, 120 to give you rather and the man went whenever they pulled them away, you know, when everybody was out. [UNKNOWN]: Some guys were still in surgery and all that, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You look around, there's whole little concrete kind of area, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was like, we're all these structures where, I mean, it was like, it's during May time frame, I believe it was, you know, it was hot, man, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And all that blood, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was a coagulate, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, where was just drip and drip and drip and others like a stalagmite, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Of coagulated blood and there's all this stuff.

2:30:55 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Now that adrenaline's gone, the guys are out. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, this is normal day at the cash with these nurses. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Who are the most bad ass females, males that I've ever experienced? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Those were the ones that were keeping that whole thing together when some people were zoned out. [UNKNOWN]: People like us were trying to figure out what to do. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And they were like, you over here, you over there stop that. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're like holding it together. [UNKNOWN]: All business. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: So we were cleaning up at the end and then I started tripping out a little bit and it was on the cleanup, you know, and all that I had in my mind. [UNKNOWN]: And again, I can't tell you as back to that initial, like, what affected me the most.

2:31:37 [UNKNOWN]: And I still don't can't really articulate it that well, man. [UNKNOWN]: But what I knew was, [UNKNOWN]: is that I didn't want their blood to soak into this growl. [UNKNOWN]: Like, you know, I was fucking angry. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And it was just blood, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Which is a part of a person, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So it was just like that whole thing. [UNKNOWN]: And so now I'm, so I get on it. [UNKNOWN]: So I'm cleaning it up, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Now I'm like a bad movie, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I can't get it off of you. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know where it's. [UNKNOWN]: but I'm sitting there and I'm like on the concrete you know what I mean and I'm just normal cleaning just normal cleaning in this moment you know and one of those nurses came by she's like hey what are you doing you know I mean and uh because she already seemed like I guess identified me like not you know me there was more going on you know than what was going on and uh she's like uh what are you doing no it's like you don't fucking clean up the blood [UNKNOWN]: It's like, okay, you know, she kept walking, you know, so I kept cleaning, but then I just kept kind of going a little bit like deeper into that.

2:32:41 [UNKNOWN]: You know what do mean kind of, now I'm scrubbing with a, you know what I'm going, you know, exoning out of. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, now it's going into something that, you know, it's kind of psychological, obviously, to some degree, but I mean, I'm okay. [UNKNOWN]: I'm just still cleaning more than I should be. [UNKNOWN]: And she comes back around again, she's like, [UNKNOWN]: I'm fucking cleaning, you know, and she's like, yeah, I know, and you're done now, and she's like, because what's happening next is we're going to back that fire truck over here, and we're going to bring that fire truck up, we're going to bring it over here, and we're going to hose this whole area down, because we got to get ready to do this again.

2:33:21 [UNKNOWN]: Do you understand? [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, I understand. [UNKNOWN]: But I got up, you know, it's because she intervened with me, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's incredible. [UNKNOWN]: That kind of hard-line stance immediately like disarmed your attitude. [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, because it was the truth. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: That's the thing about the truth, man, that whole Anis, who it's coming from, you know, is a seasoned truth teller. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like who has gone through that, but I know before herself. [UNKNOWN]: and could be going through it right now like she's not going to come apart until you know mean an hour from now you know to mean and uh but yeah just in that part but that was just again a preliminary but i didn't had all these different experiences you know to mean and then [UNKNOWN]: You know, just all the emotions about everything that was going on, man, I couldn't medicate any of that stuff.

2:34:12 [UNKNOWN]: You know, normal people have some freaking drinks, you know? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Like, you experience like a tough day, man, like you have a few drinks. [UNKNOWN]: Did you struggle with that, or ever come close to in that event? [UNKNOWN]: That was your question. [UNKNOWN]: No, the only calm that it came, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So two times, and while, and this was the one of the times, that's why I went back to this number two. [UNKNOWN]: Because all of those times, man, again, I have all of these over a decade now, you know, of deploying of being, you know, in all these environments, you know, being the designated driver, bringing the security guy and some bar in Nicaragua, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know me, but I have a duty, you know what I mean?

2:34:54 [UNKNOWN]: The reason why I could be there and sometimes whenever I didn't feel on solid spiritual ground, I'll be like, yeah, you're guys good luck, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm not partaking in your idiocracy, the big boy rules tonight, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: No minder. [UNKNOWN]: But most of the time I was all good to go, but any time I would have what I refer to as a significant emotional event. [UNKNOWN]: The first thing I do about it is think about [UNKNOWN]: It's always been the case for me, and I think that's one of the things that makes me an alcoholic was it's like that's back to it being my solution, the ingrained solution for me, all the way back to first Friday night sober. [UNKNOWN]: I've never been sober on a Friday night.

2:35:35 [UNKNOWN]: I get a rep in, first Saturday night, first new years, first Christmas. [UNKNOWN]: First, promotion party. [UNKNOWN]: First, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know, all those different things. [UNKNOWN]: That's one of the reason why that first amount of time gets over so hard, man, because everything is the first. [UNKNOWN]: Well, I mean, I'd had over a decade of first, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, that thought of Drake and you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: A lot of times it wouldn't even come up. [UNKNOWN]: In any time like I have a new significant emotional event, [UNKNOWN]: you know mean it come up and in both of those times that I can't mask casualty in the first one within arms reach of me both times it was a sweating bottle of gym being which when I preferred you know what I mean and uh... i don't know if you figured it out but i'm kind of poor white triathred back drinker you know in uh...

2:36:23 [UNKNOWN]: Well, perhaps Blue Ribbon. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think it's part of it. [UNKNOWN]: I'm Milwaukee's best, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'll love it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: But it was, but again, man, it was just a thought. [UNKNOWN]: But because I'm recovered, alcoholic, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm recovered from a shapeless, hopeless state of mind and body. [UNKNOWN]: And more so, I put in the work every day. [UNKNOWN]: That's necessary. [UNKNOWN]: So when these challenges occur in my life, because I don't get to pick them. [UNKNOWN]: I'm ready for them because on any of those given days, man, if I had fallen short of putting in the work, you know what I mean, and that, you know what I mean, and I had to meet it, you know what I mean, then I would have drank. [UNKNOWN]: But because I had that foundation under me because I had been complacent because I write my gratitude list and my prayers and get my mind right, you know, before the day even begins, you know what I mean?

2:37:10 [UNKNOWN]: When those times happened, [UNKNOWN]: You know, because even in those both of those times, I would just be like, if freaking kidding me, you know what I mean, my drug choice, you know what I mean, sweating within arms reach. [UNKNOWN]: Like is this like some kind of a setup man? [UNKNOWN]: But I just laugh and I know I remove myself because if I stay setting there and I stay looking at it. [UNKNOWN]: I'm all right. [UNKNOWN]: I'm all right. [UNKNOWN]: It's not bothering me. [UNKNOWN]: It's not bothering me. [UNKNOWN]: I'm just going to set here. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, dude, I only got so much of that before I'm like screw it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I got to just, I mean, this is a simple risk mitigation formula. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: How do you take something that's high-risky?

2:37:52 [UNKNOWN]: Put in, you know, me put in actions that mitigate it from a high risk to a low risk operation. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, or move yourself. [UNKNOWN]: But if you're not doing those actions to mitigate that risk, yes, high risk. [UNKNOWN]: For sure. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So moving on to the third 20 years ago this month, that's the one that you still remember. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so we were going out with this again in the 80s second. [UNKNOWN]: I'm just doing sniper coverage with him and just filling in. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, no big time secret mission. [UNKNOWN]: But the thing was is that it was in this area, a lot of foreign fighters, which we had known [UNKNOWN]: use a FIA mock-and-wood-dea, that whole kind of area, a lot of helo shot down in a big foreign fighter pipeline.

2:38:41 [UNKNOWN]: In any way, we were working down in there. [UNKNOWN]: And so, normal awesome, I mean, it was like battalion operations, companies out maneuvering, battalion mortars, providing, you know, mortarsify. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's like conventional, I mean, ops, you know, combat operations. [UNKNOWN]: And I saw it you know in overwatch a lot of times you know me not not a lot of action but we just we just help them out a lot you know and so And during that day as the day it was a three-day mission during that as the day progressed [UNKNOWN]: Um, man, we started eating a ton of mortar rounds, you know what I mean like a ton.

2:39:23 [UNKNOWN]: Let me define that, you know, a ton to me, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: At easy minimum 20 mortar rounds had fallen within 150 meter radius. [UNKNOWN]: I would say that's a lot. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, me too. [UNKNOWN]: I'm glad you think that way, but I think it was. [UNKNOWN]: And some of those were like, you know, 30 meters, 50, but just like just the right spots where it didn't hit anybody or get us, but it was just like, man, this is we need to move, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Normally, [UNKNOWN]: we would have been gone. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean because, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It doesn't fit our, what we're doing, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: We're not conventional armies die in place positions.

2:40:04 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: No man, no. [UNKNOWN]: But we're with them, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And that's a conventional way, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And it's not wrong, it's conventionally that's the way to do it. [UNKNOWN]: So we end up, so nothing happens, and we end up saying, like, hey, we're moving to another position, man. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, we're here, we're going to move over there. [UNKNOWN]: So the plan was, is like, okay, we're getting ready to move. [UNKNOWN]: And later that night, you know what you got dark, you know what I'm saying? [UNKNOWN]: And before that was the plan, man, and I don't know a couple hours before it got dark, one of those rounds, man. [UNKNOWN]: hit boom like a money spot so they had uh i was setting next to i'm staying in there talking again man like i was from old school kind of guy right like the only combat patch i wear is my 82nd combat patch the old like hey don't forget where you come from boy you know and i mean so uh you know live that so i'm there with 82nd guys and they're with one of those guys you know and um [UNKNOWN]: We're all kidded up, everybody's good, you know, we're all in uniform, and we're off the gun, you know, and everybody's, you know, nobody, everybody's pulling security, and he's weird to just talk in.

2:41:17 [UNKNOWN]: Man, and then that more around his, probably 20 meters, 82 millimeter round, and it hits right in the middle of this trailer. [UNKNOWN]: And in the trailer, was where there. [UNKNOWN]: FDC was you know the mobile ballistic computers and all that stuff, you know me because they're calling for fire they then mortars are set right out there and Man so that round hit them Hit the guys to left and right I mean not a mark on me. [UNKNOWN]: I mean broke my wrist because I have flipped me up knocked me out for some amount of time I don't think much, but don't know what [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, you know, maybe you're maybe not experienced income, and you know, if you can hear it, you're good.

2:41:57 [UNKNOWN]: It's the ones, you know, I mean, the ones that are on you, the only thing you hear is the exposure. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I'm saying when they're talking BS and then the whole world, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Just comes apart. [UNKNOWN]: And then I remember coming to, you know what I mean and you can't see anything. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, just from the comp B and the round and the dirt and the dust. [UNKNOWN]: You mean so I wake up and what I didn't know what happened at that moment was I received a no shit traumatic brain, you know, malenchomatic brain injury like it changed. [UNKNOWN]: I call it a mechanical break, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I had nothing to do with emotions or feelings and anything, man, it was a hard break, you know what I mean inside my systems.

2:42:38 [UNKNOWN]: Didn't know that at the time, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so again, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I start coming too, waking up, man, in the first thing I hear is those screams, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Multiple men screaming, you know what I mean for their lives. [UNKNOWN]: I mean that awful, [UNKNOWN]: shouldn't come out of a grown man's, you know, mouth kind of things. [UNKNOWN]: And you mean, so that, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That was just like, [UNKNOWN]: what the fuck is going on you know what means so get up you know to me and start running to where you're here and you know then finally you can see but then the trailers on fire there's all these mortar rounds already fused up ready to go you know for the other ones multiple guys injured pulling guys out man trailers trailer fire you know burns into and about six minutes you know with a decent wind and there was a decent wind [UNKNOWN]: So we're pulling guys out, guys still in there, some of the guys, you know what I mean, who are on rest, you know, took off their LBEs, you know what I mean, they had their armor and stuff on.

2:43:39 [UNKNOWN]: Some of that's left in there, it's all cooking off now, and the frickin' trailer fire, you know what I mean, and all of them think gonna fire for effect. [UNKNOWN]: But luckily, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I didn't that it didn't happen. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They were just shooting up rounds and you know, and moving. [UNKNOWN]: And so here we are in another event, man. [UNKNOWN]: And it was brutal. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Again, not many guys to help. [UNKNOWN]: You know, everybody's working. [UNKNOWN]: And there's still guys being worked on these guys, man, are significantly injured. [UNKNOWN]: three on four guys know what it for on three year.

2:44:20 [UNKNOWN]: What was some combo of that and at least one guy had one more than one and so man it it was a lot the trailers burn in man and other guys like trying to help other guys hey go to that dude because dudes are running from where the battalion was you know [UNKNOWN]: Like, everybody's trying to come for help, man, because we're in this little outpost position, you know, and everybody's coming to help. [UNKNOWN]: And everybody's starting to settle in and help everything out, man. [UNKNOWN]: But it was, you know, mean it was just a, it was, again, I had that hard break in there, man. [UNKNOWN]: But then also, man, I'm working on this one guy, man, and as I'm driving him, you know what I mean or not to be, I mean it'd be a graphic to be [UNKNOWN]: Okay, I got this freaking headbreak going on that I don't know this going on, you know, trying to figure out what's happened and all these dudes are wounded that was just talking with and, you know, and everything, I'm pulling this big ass dude, you know what I mean, who's heavy, and man, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he's got a compound fracture, you know what I mean, in his lower leg, and he [UNKNOWN]: you know mean in that bone you know me to skip and offer the dirt you know the wrong way as I'm pulling him is just bleeding out all over the place he conscious he yeah and he's conscious man and so thank god you know but I mean and yeah thank god it was but it was awful and just you know

2:45:54 [UNKNOWN]: So then start getting them packaged up, then the next thing is is that, man, and the reason I tell the story, too, is like, yeah, experience, but it's really the story about all the heroes that were around there, man, I mean, yeah, I was one dude that was doing medical aid, you know, and good. [UNKNOWN]: I'm proud of that, you know, I did some heroic stuff, you know what I mean, and I'm proud of that. [UNKNOWN]: But what I'm talking about is stuff that's not written down in that award, you know what I mean, and especially the next stuff I'll talk about, and, um, [UNKNOWN]: So that's just going on and then you know have all these vehicles that we confiscated, you know, to mean that we're using for Medevac, because we aerosalted in there with, you know what's your heavy vehicles.

2:46:35 [UNKNOWN]: So now we're going to these LZs, man, that is again, this is at the triangle of death. [UNKNOWN]: They're not going to come, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know, but they're probably ordered to not come. [UNKNOWN]: It is a daylight, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so it's just, but then the next [UNKNOWN]: came anyway. [UNKNOWN]: That's the uh... there's so many stories from Vietnam of stuff like that uh... you're just like and we would still be singing hymns about them yeah i mean like you'd have to have a wheelbarrow to drag your knouts of a man no doubt it's so that's where it was like so those he loves a mean no one like that that you know me in the head they're not allowed to come here they are there there [UNKNOWN]: and so then so that happened they come in they take them out you know what I mean like okay that's like the first iteration I didn't know there was a second in at this moment and then so all that just happens you know me now we're back to cleanup mode well I got experience in the cleanup mode you know what I mean so cleaning up mode you know what I mean but there my little instead of cleaning up the blood is like you know me like getting all the bandages like don't let these motherfuckers know that they got us you know what I mean like [UNKNOWN]: No bloody bandage is no blood anywhere put in dirt.

2:47:51 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, but as again it was like Prepping but I didn't have anybody pull me out of that one. [UNKNOWN]: So I got me out of my out of myself on that one So I got a rep in you know, and I learned to like okay stop doing that and then as then we were gonna move to our other position You know, I mean, so we knew to our other position. [UNKNOWN]: So here's the here's like the I don't even know how to describe how wild this sequence of events with the dates are and everything that happened [UNKNOWN]: And so this is September, this happened on September the first of 2006 that when I just described. [UNKNOWN]: So we make our move, we go up to this other position and so September the second, so my sobriety day to September the second of 92, right, the day my life changed.

2:48:42 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean like, and had changed forever. [UNKNOWN]: It was this day I most celebrated every day of my life, you know, me from that moment to this moment. [UNKNOWN]: And now I September the second. [UNKNOWN]: In the sun's coming up, you know, to me, we're on a water tower, and the sun's coming up on that water tower, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I've had all night to kind of like. [UNKNOWN]: All night was going on with me as I can't stop here in those guys' screen. [UNKNOWN]: So it's making me a little fucking crazy. [UNKNOWN]: You know, just like, it'll go away a little bit and then it'll come back and it'll go away and it'll come back. [UNKNOWN]: But I'm just focusing on our mission and what we need to be doing. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and everything was good, but it's all a lot going on.

2:49:23 [UNKNOWN]: And man, I'm hurting, I'm like hurting, hurting physically. [UNKNOWN]: and i didn't understand it because i've been blown up before we all been blown up you know what mean it was like in my mind this wasn't anything special this wasn't anything different you mean all the close door charges all the iEDs you know what i mean like this was normal business back in those days especially from oh five those six you know i mean i didn't know anybody that haven't been blown up multiple times you know so in my mind it was a lot of stuff not making sense even in that moment like [UNKNOWN]: And of course there's tons of emotions going on and then you know I've got it all dialed in doing the job But when I'm not on the gun, you know what I mean like pulling security on the behind those you know pulling doing our jobs You know what I mean, I'm thinking and processing and like what the fuck you know what I mean and I'm in the sun's coming up that next morning And I'm like part of me is like [UNKNOWN]: Man, I'm happy to be alive.

2:50:21 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I am aesthetic. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That the sun, I can feel the sun on my face and with the same conviction and the same level of intensity of emotion and it's like, I'm a fucking coward for thinking that way and feeling that way. [UNKNOWN]: Really? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, because they're dead. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're their lives are changed forever. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: you know what about them you know me so all of that is going on in my head and the if for that period of time the bad one out you know or but i didn't know what was bad and good at that time man but i just knew the more overwhelming thought was how in the world could you be happy you know what i mean to be alive when when they're not [UNKNOWN]: You know, and that's that, I didn't have these words back then, you know what I mean?

2:51:13 [UNKNOWN]: And even for years afterwards, but that's where that more, the terms moral injury and moral grief, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's kind of an example of it. [UNKNOWN]: For me, you know, was that, you know, logic says that I didn't have anything to do with that. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, that, but doesn't matter. [UNKNOWN]: The reality is what happens inside my head, because if it happens in my head, it's real. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: Well, it's real or not, it's irrelevant, you know, and, um, [UNKNOWN]: so that was what was going on so it was very shameful and disgraceful and then you know within an hour another mortar round lands exactly where my ruck was.

2:51:53 [UNKNOWN]: Six more dudes get blown off, get blown off of the roof where we would have gotten blown off of. [UNKNOWN]: and uh... and uh... one of them is a guy that i know we're in the q course together didn't know him really well but we're in the q course together and uh... and all is we're doing a set in there watching it you know [UNKNOWN]: Yeah man, so what happened to me that day is a couple of things was, I didn't know it but I was mechanically broke so my executive functioning wasn't working that game, you know things had changed physiologically inside of me, and then also emotionally man, like I was, I literally like my heart broke into a million different pieces man, because again that loss and again, I'm old enough like these guys are old enough to be my son, you know what I mean, like all of these, [UNKNOWN]: All of these different things going off and then again that thought of like, hey, I can't protect them.

2:52:48 [UNKNOWN]: Right? [UNKNOWN]: So what does it protect or do when he fails to protect that which matters most? [UNKNOWN]: Right? [UNKNOWN]: So my mind, this was a failure. [UNKNOWN]: Again, kind of unrealistic thinking nonetheless my thinking at that moment, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: What's one of two things either you quit or you doubled out, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And obviously I didn't quit. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so in my mind was as well, if I can't protect them defensively, then if there's the less of them there are, that's how I'm going to protect you know, so the rest of my deployments after that is where it got like I said a lot more personal, you know, an intentional, again, wouldn't have changed any of my actions, but the why behind it was much, much different.

2:53:37 [UNKNOWN]: The, that mentality, I mean, I said that it didn't change your actions, but did you find for you personally that that vengeful thought process translated into your operational capacity that it changed your ability to operate as well? [UNKNOWN]: Um, did I change it? [UNKNOWN]: It would have, if I would have kept going. [UNKNOWN]: Because it was right on the verge there at the end, where it did affect immediately. [UNKNOWN]: Again, inside, outside actions, but inside, dot processes, my empathy level was like, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I actually was bottom and out quick.

2:54:17 [UNKNOWN]: Because does that translate to the way that you prosecute targets? [UNKNOWN]: your decision-making process of being kind of more for lack of better terms cowboy like or or are you still pretty, I don't know, prejudiced in how you go about in a good way, how you go about [UNKNOWN]: discerning targeting and things like that. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, because like a no and what's keeping all of that from happening is that number one the team and then the multiple teams You know because usually we were at a few teams on a tar you know me not just one team doing so but so collectively [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean that any kind of a cowboy shit you know what I mean that that note because uh... you know doctrine lee you know me and uh... like we're pretty much good standard holders kind of folks you know what I mean and the reason why it gives us the flexibility to do what we do is because we're so tight on our SOPs and doctrine of what we're doing so [UNKNOWN]: So, you know, rarely, once they all the time, rarely did the cowboy stuff ever slip in, it did been on occasion.

2:55:30 [UNKNOWN]: But not, I'll lucky for me no one paid for any of my attitudes of that way, whenever I was willing to risk more than, you know, the whole risk-eakling, the risk has to be able to gain. [UNKNOWN]: So, it was more of you taking more risk than you normally would than it was you being sloppy or with your targeting. [UNKNOWN]: I'm as a little bit of risk, but I guess I don't really know how to articulate it that well, but it was like where it was harmed, the only person that was getting harmed was me, for the most part. [UNKNOWN]: Now there was some things to me where I would push the guardrail on that were virgin on too much risk. [UNKNOWN]: But not quite, you know, but it was enough that my teammates were having to look out for me at times.

2:56:14 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: You know, like kind of like, hey, make sure Tom's all right. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: You know, kind of deal. [UNKNOWN]: And I didn't know they were doing that behind my back, but I think all that worked. [UNKNOWN]: You know, because there was, that's why I say if I would have kept going on to the way that I was that that was the next thing, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I could see happening. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Was that anything that needed needed to or was needed to be or was internalized within the group kind of like a leadership bringing in signing like, hey, I know we just, you know, took it on the channel. [UNKNOWN]: I know you guys are pissed off, but we're professionals, we're better than that and we need to continue to to fight this war the way that we know is the right way to do it.

2:56:55 [UNKNOWN]: No, man, there was no need to say it. [UNKNOWN]: Because the reason I asked, I just had Brad Geary on, it was at Dev Group in Gold Squadron, when I was lucky in 17 happened, and they went into the area where that he though was shot down right afterwards to settle the score, and he kind of echoed those types of sentiments where they had to kind of rain themselves in to make sure that it didn't get out of hand from a kind of a retribution standpoint. [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely. [UNKNOWN]: Manus human. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's a normal human nature, but again, back to the utilizing of the compartmentalizing. [UNKNOWN]: And that's one thing that I know when I've heard just different stories, and I can say unit, not unit specific, but predominantly [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean?

2:57:45 [UNKNOWN]: Like, it held true. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I'm sure there's pockets of it where that broke out into a little bit more, but for the most, and I'll just speak for my own experience, for my own experience, anytime that that began to happen, because it did happen, man, with a different guy's meaning like individuals, but never as a collective that I witnessed, did it begin a collective meaning as even as small as a team. [UNKNOWN]: It was just like, hey, it never changed [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean the ones that met the criteria, you know what I mean of the ROE of the target package It was never any extras on top of that you know what I mean, but it made it very specific on that and then You know, I mean like I said just speaking for me personally intentionally there was Personal satisfaction right out of it [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean?

2:58:35 [UNKNOWN]: Which ended up harming my humanity later on? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I can imagine. [UNKNOWN]: That's why I put the emphasis on it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And a lot of things that I've learned post-military as to far, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Our ancients, whether a Spartan American Indians, all that, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They had, they knew that that was a thing that happened. [UNKNOWN]: So they did things to ensure that it didn't, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And we didn't, we didn't have the benefit of having those TTPs in place. [UNKNOWN]: in the early GW, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: We were learning on the go, but I know, again, it's just speaking for me, man. [UNKNOWN]: It was collectively the people around us. [UNKNOWN]: And maybe in one of the guys that was going, again, not too far, but getting to the edge of it, you know, mean being rained in with a conversation or a look, or like, hey, you are right?

2:59:27 [UNKNOWN]: Like that intentional hate like I know you're not all right. [UNKNOWN]: That's why I'm letting you know this You know me. [UNKNOWN]: Hey you all right, you know me it's like pause Yeah, I'm all right. [UNKNOWN]: It's like okay. [UNKNOWN]: I thought so you know me and then moving on so it was But man what really got me in that thing was the undiagnosed [UNKNOWN]: TBI that I got there. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, because I was because I'm never a risk taker, man. [UNKNOWN]: I'm never a, if the risk, even if it's high risk, I'm down if it meets the gain, right? [UNKNOWN]: But high risk, not meeting the gain, like we lost, I've lost friends over that, you know what I mean?

3:00:09 [UNKNOWN]: So, yeah, man, it was always that being there and then I found myself, [UNKNOWN]: Like, thank God for me, no one suffered from it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because I don't know if I'd be here today, if I had to live with that kind of shame, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, there was times, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Whenever I would assume more risk, you know, whenever a good buddy of mine, who was the team leader at time, it's like, hey bro, why are you going so and so? [UNKNOWN]: Why are you going by yourself? [UNKNOWN]: Like, my fuck bro, it's no big deal. [UNKNOWN]: I'm just going over there. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but it is like, yeah, but just let me know, man, and I'll go with you.

3:00:50 [UNKNOWN]: I'm not saying don't go, I'll go with you. [UNKNOWN]: You know, two-man rule like we always have, and I'll go like, okay, yeah, man, my bad. [UNKNOWN]: And then I, but then I started thinking, man, this is like, oh, seven, man, I was like, [UNKNOWN]: And that was, that dude was one of my best friends, man. [UNKNOWN]: And I put him, he obviously, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Troops are major just said something to him. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I put him, not at risk, but you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I put him, like, he was a fucking Tom Dwayne. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, I don't know, what is he, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I put him in a good light. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so I never do that. [UNKNOWN]: I never do that, but I did. [UNKNOWN]: And so I just started thinking, I'm like, man, why did I, [UNKNOWN]: That's not like me.

3:01:31 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Why did I do that? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then there was these certain things that would happen again throughout, to where I was like, man, I think something's matter. [UNKNOWN]: But I don't know what it is, you know what I mean. [UNKNOWN]: And then those things that weren't much, you know, started stacking up, stacking up, stacking up, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And at the end, I was not well. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Before we get into the really coming to that realization and then you're exit out. [UNKNOWN]: into what you have going on now, and subsequent to your separation. [UNKNOWN]: Did you know Matt and I, and very well? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: He was my best friend growing up, which is weird, because I've had a few other delta guys on that knew him all the way, were you there that day when he held you?

3:02:19 [UNKNOWN]: I was not. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I just got a curiosity, because it's such a small world, and kind of a coincidence, but we worked in different units, subunits, and [UNKNOWN]: And I would run into and talk to him a lot, you know, in physical therapy, because I had like broken my back in O3, re-engineered it and said, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So I was doing a lot of physical therapy whenever, you know, he would be doing a lot of hell. [UNKNOWN]: That was really whenever, that was the only way that I knew. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't know him like on the job, but I knew him whenever I was going bro. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, like, oh man, you know what I mean, doing there? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, but it was, he was as far as I knew of really good guy.

3:03:00 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that was great, great man. [UNKNOWN]: That is wild though. [UNKNOWN]: I know it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, just, I mean, that's a whole story in and of itself. [UNKNOWN]: But being a dog guy, I'm curious. [UNKNOWN]: Are there any operations that you went on where, where the dogs prove themselves to be kind of that same shining moment of, of saving you or any of your guys' asses? [UNKNOWN]: Mad in, so I know of. [UNKNOWN]: hundreds you know what I mean I would yeah I mean that would be safe to say if I was talking unit wide you know I mean like real stories throughout a decade you know to me especially when it was from you know the beginning of the the whole idea of the dog program all the way to you know when I left in 2010 man like literally hundreds you know [UNKNOWN]: Is there one you could share that stands out as being there's there's none that I personally experience with you know me and other than [UNKNOWN]: other than key and off where someone was hiding, you know what I mean with during room clearance, you know, mean for me, because there was a lot of times man when I was a lot of times we would be, you know, formed out to outstations, you know what I mean?

3:04:18 [UNKNOWN]: So it was a lot of by with and through a lot of times, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: We didn't have a dog with us, but I mean, you [UNKNOWN]: point-not-where people were hiding, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So we were ready, but I mean tons are like all the real stories, man, or where the dogs dead because of, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But I mean a lot of times we did that transition when we still had the means, you know, to meet of ROE, to like, yeah, we're tired of losing dogs, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, why would we... [UNKNOWN]: we don't want to lose a dog either. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, yeah, if we have to, if we have to triage it, like, okay, the dog goes before the operator, you know what I mean?

3:05:03 [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, there's a lot of times two, where it's like, okay, we don't want to lose a dog either, so level the place, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Especially when you knew that there was like you like a call out or something Wait, hey, you knew that if there's anybody in there, it's only bad guys. [UNKNOWN]: It's like It's don't send a dog and like that was like yeah, because that was an all-in-evolution also because every there was a time when like send a dog And you know what I mean like then dog is blow it up, you know what I mean and say? [UNKNOWN]: Okay, that's what we looked at, you know, yeah, we're one of the things you mentioned as kind of random I guess, but it just kind of stuck in my brain. [UNKNOWN]: The foreign fighter aspect was such a big part of a rack.

3:05:45 [UNKNOWN]: You know, it was almost a call to action for any geodist globally, if you wanted to get your hands dirty and fight Americans, you went to Iraq to do it. [UNKNOWN]: I want to be sensitive from the intelligence side of the house, so feel free to say, I'm going to punt this one. [UNKNOWN]: But was there an area or a region, a country that surprised you the most that people were from that you guys engaged? [UNKNOWN]: It surprised me the most. [UNKNOWN]: Like, it was the most, well, I can't believe this here, you know, fighting and- No, man, I personally didn't run into any of the, wow, during that my time frame of the wars there.

3:06:26 [UNKNOWN]: It was the normal ones, you know, Middle Eastern background, you know, I mean, you know, more from some areas, fewer from other areas, but, you know, they were the ones that [UNKNOWN]: that you know made it a real war. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for sure. [UNKNOWN]: Because I mean after that Saddam peace, you know, I mean that was over quick, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then the next big piece was that old deal. [UNKNOWN]: From your experience, because it seems pretty relevant to what's happening as we said here [UNKNOWN]: the involvement of Iran funneling, you know, EFPs and high-level operatives and training and materials, funds, etc. [UNKNOWN]: Did you ever witness any, I guess, evidence that you could say, yeah, we know Iran was behind this?

3:07:12 [UNKNOWN]: Man, they, I mean, not personally, but I know that especially, you know, I mean, [UNKNOWN]: in the Shia areas, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: There was a lot of the goods force guys, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They killed a few Americans at an outposts, and stuff, all the EFP's that were coming in through there. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that was, I mean, 100% validated and verified that that is exactly, you know, and that was, I mean, we're talking 2005 time frame. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, and not to get too bad. [UNKNOWN]: They've had it coming for a long time. [UNKNOWN]: Well, yeah, I mean, at least to my next question, I don't get too often the weeds on it, but there's part of me that sees what they did to our combat troops for most of the active years in Iraq and we did nothing about it.

3:08:05 [UNKNOWN]: are you at all either surprised or disappointed that we're doing what we're doing now when we didn't have the stomach or balls to do it when they were actually actively engaging our troops in combat? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's something you think about at all. [UNKNOWN]: Man, I mean, yeah, the uh... [UNKNOWN]: Because it kind of goes and like the thing is, I've never really understood our policy, you know what to mean, like, kind of taking a step back, but it's like a whole sequence of events, you know, and capitalize on a few things where [UNKNOWN]: This is going to, I'm going to make it tie back in or promise, but it's like you know like I'll use as an example is like when we lost I rack to whichever bad guys, you know what I mean, we lost that again to stand back to the, you know, me tell them like there's a lot of a lot of veterans that have that are really messed up about that, you know, and I understand why I'm [UNKNOWN]: The thing for me was, man, is I went through what they are going through, not the same capacity, but the same effect.

3:09:15 [UNKNOWN]: what they're going through now in 1993, in 1993 I was in the 80s, and in 1993 is when Somalia Mogadishu happened, right? [UNKNOWN]: I mean we're getting ready, that anniversary is getting ready, come up. [UNKNOWN]: So I'm sitting there as an E5, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That part of my story, you know, in 1993, obviously, and [UNKNOWN]: reading the newspaper, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I'll never forget it. [UNKNOWN]: We were on a some feel problem in Fort Bragg. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And they bring it out in Mermites, you know, with food for us. [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, my buddy, the mess sergeant, you know, he brings out a newspaper back when there were newspapers. [UNKNOWN]: You remember those days? [UNKNOWN]: I still read them. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

3:09:55 [UNKNOWN]: He, the abroad out of newspaper, and it was about everything. [UNKNOWN]: It was about the guys being drugged around in the streets. [UNKNOWN]: So, and then it was, and then it was a sequence of events a few days after that, you know, I mean, but then we pulled out, right? [UNKNOWN]: And so, what I mean, I had to deal with that dilemma back then was if you had asked me prior to that event, it happened inside Tom, what would your country do for you and your family if the bad guys, whoever the bad guys are, kill you and drag you through the streets, what will your country do about that? [UNKNOWN]: My answer would have them, they're gonna annihilate them, you know, because they're not gonna allow that to go.

3:10:38 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Especially the extra being drugged through the streets and all that. [UNKNOWN]: You know, when it's not just good guys, I'm as bad guys and you take it to another level, you know, and, um, well, that's not what happened, right wrong or indifferent, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, I'm not getting into that, what happened was as we left. [UNKNOWN]: So what I thought would have been my answer, you know, for those warriors there, we left, obviously regime change on our end, all these things that we knew happen happen, here relevant, because now I had to answer the question, it's like, okay, I've just been shown that that what I thought was going to be true is not true. [UNKNOWN]: or could not be true. [UNKNOWN]: So why am I in, you know what I mean?

3:11:20 [UNKNOWN]: And then I reconciled all that, you know, in my mind, is like, okay, I get it now. [UNKNOWN]: I'm not a get it, instrument of my country, blah, blah, blah. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I'm into all that stuff too, man, but at the end of the day, the reason why I am in the army is for the men, the left and right of me, period and the story, the mission and the men left and right of me. [UNKNOWN]: doesn't matter what the cause is, doesn't matter what, if I believe it, doesn't, you know what to mean all those things you give up whenever you enlist, you know, or contract, you know, me, so I'll reconcile that, you know, to mean back, way back then, because I was even going to get out, man, because it screwed me up, because again, it blew up my whole idea of what I thought was true.

3:12:05 [UNKNOWN]: And so I reconciled that piece back then, man. [UNKNOWN]: So I knew, throughout, again, just another training factor, you know what I mean of even a mental, you know, me. [UNKNOWN]: So I knew, back then, what these guys are experienced. [UNKNOWN]: Now, so when I was experienced, all that, like, you know, how many of the same targets that we've hit, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I said, yeah, much less the same country. [UNKNOWN]: I mean this whack-a-mo, man, like it's only going to change. [UNKNOWN]: Here's the thing, and this is another thing that a lot of [UNKNOWN]: Was it worth it, you know what I mean like we didn't complete our mission and you know as a failure is like look dude [UNKNOWN]: Here's what I know, how the GWAT guy kicked off, right, is that we went there for one reason, you know, and where there's two, you know what I mean?

3:12:51 [UNKNOWN]: You can call it what you want, just this revenge, you know what I mean, blood for blood, all of that, and so that none of those attacks occurred in our country again, right? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that was the mission, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, it was broken down tactically, but that was the mission. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: 12 years later into the war, even further into it, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was like, hey man, mission success. [UNKNOWN]: We did it. [UNKNOWN]: how many other large scale attacks have occurred in the United States of America? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, they haven't, you know what the mission kind of transformed into, what was the mission anyway? [UNKNOWN]: You know, and then because Americans have short memories which we know, and then the other thing was, oh, it's about women's rights, it's about voting, it's like all these great wonderful things occurred because we created that space.

3:13:42 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean of, of where decent things can happen [UNKNOWN]: I mean as soon as we leave there's a vacuum and bad guys fill it up. [UNKNOWN]: It's not new. [UNKNOWN]: Last time I checked we have a base in Japan, right? [UNKNOWN]: We have a base in Germany. [UNKNOWN]: Like the US knows how to make change in an area and continue that change. [UNKNOWN]: Like if we were going to do what should have been done, if we wanted unrest to stop there, [UNKNOWN]: When we know how to do that, you make a base there and then now a fundamental difference is as far as religion, you know what I mean, that's a key factor, but if you wanted to stabilize an area, you have to continue to have presence in it.

3:14:29 [UNKNOWN]: We didn't have presence in nothing, man, and then [UNKNOWN]: You know, to mean a lot of that is a victim mentality that no one's responsible for anything, anything as you are fault, as Saddam's fault, as Americans fault, as so and so as as fault. [UNKNOWN]: No one has to, you know, the deal, many even personally, if you don't take responsibility for your actions, you're just a victim. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Do you feel that same way about Iraq, I mean Afghanistan is, for my perspective, far more cut and dry as to the cause and effect, why we're there, what the goal is, et cetera, Iraq to me is quite a bit more muddy. [UNKNOWN]: As it being the primary place of operations for your combat operations career, and I know you just mentioned it's about the guy to the left and the right, but is there any part of you that feels like Iraq as an entire experience was a mistake on the United States [UNKNOWN]: entirely helpful, but they're still a huge win.

3:15:35 [UNKNOWN]: It's the unknown win of the Iraq war. [UNKNOWN]: It's called the Kurds. [UNKNOWN]: It's called Northern Iraq. [UNKNOWN]: like you get on a plane in Germany or anywhere else in Europe and fly right into Erbil you can fly right into Solomonia I mean there's huge but like you know I mean like north of Kirkuk you know what I mean that whole Kurdish line you know what I mean that's not officially aligned but Align you mean as soon as we gave that portion of Iraq to them you know what I mean that [UNKNOWN]: What did they do with it, man? [UNKNOWN]: They, because they're a different people, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They, I mean, the business is prospering, you know, mean, industry, like all of that stuff.

3:16:19 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's, you know, that pocket of the world, that was the only win of, in my opinion, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: The only win, I mean, look, the rest of us been took in retake in, [UNKNOWN]: I mean, nothing's going to change with that, but in the Kurdish areas, I mean, that was the big win for, at least some people out of that whole country, you know, and we got something out of it, and they still are getting out of it today, you know, and now they're pinched in, even more of it. [UNKNOWN]: Man, that was, to me, because, I mean, I know a lot of those guys up there in the north, so it's like, man, it's the unknown win of the Iraq war. [UNKNOWN]: The part I struggle with is I would say maybe on a broader spectrum of, you know, the two things that I keep kind of coming back to, I would say, is the global catastrophe that the first domino that fell was us going into Iraq and by that, you know, when we first kind of massively pulled out in, you know, [UNKNOWN]: The unintended consequence of the global Middle Eastern refugee flooding the entire world, you know, predominantly Europe, but even millions of them coming here, and the historical societal and cultural shift that has taken place in, again, predominantly in Europe, but really all over the world because of it.

3:17:49 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think what have happened if we hadn't gone into Iraq. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think that you have tens of millions of Muslim refugees changing the culture of so many of these European countries because ISIS wouldn't have never swept through there. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think Syria would have fallen the way that it did because the one thing is big of a motherfucker is Saddam was. [UNKNOWN]: is that he was a big enough thorn in the side of Iran and their regime, you know, especially on the tails of the early 80s, Iran, Iraq War, is that he kept that in check to a certain extent. [UNKNOWN]: So it's all relative because the Middle East is a powder keg to begin with before the Middle East, relatively stable. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think it's a coincidence either that, you know, as soon as Iran does not have the threat of Saddam and Iraq doing whatever they're afraid of them doing, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis that early 2000s mid 2000s is when they, you know, they existed decades before that.

3:18:45 [UNKNOWN]: But the unfettered supply access, support, and global reach that all three of those entities grew into as soon as we did that skyrocketed as well. [UNKNOWN]: It's another thing I don't think that would have happened to that scale had we not done what we done. [UNKNOWN]: Those are the two things that I struggle with. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, there's always the, when you say struggle, what do you struggle with about [UNKNOWN]: Well, like saying it's a mistake of saying like, you know, we shouldn't have gone in there because of the, you know, these outcomes like a rack by itself is one thing, right. [UNKNOWN]: That the cascade of other parts of the region and yeah, yeah, even other parts of the world because of that one singular action that you don't really hear many people talk about.

3:19:30 [UNKNOWN]: I think it's. [UNKNOWN]: You know, at least inaccurate, maybe even disingenuous to not at least factor that into the equation of trying to reflect and not necessarily to point fingers and play the blame game, but to say like, hey, moving forward, we're going to get involved in somewhere. [UNKNOWN]: We've got to take these things into consideration. [UNKNOWN]: of what effect from kind of the still water pond blowback aspect of what our actions and what the implications of our actions have on the entire world. [UNKNOWN]: That's the part that I have a hard time saying, yeah, Rack was a good thing and to do it all over again.

3:20:12 [UNKNOWN]: I think we should do it. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think we should because of those reasons. [UNKNOWN]: That's my personal opinion. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, it's so many different angles in there. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it was a lot to it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but it was just to me the big, because I mean, not knowing whether we should or should and I don't know what, you know, WMD, there's WMD. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, it's proved out a lot of things who knows what's changed in there but just this, but definitely the way we went about it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, it was totally dumb. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, and like with all this smart people like to take it that whole, [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean, ma'am, um, population, military agents, male population and put them in no work. [UNKNOWN]: That's only going to equal one thing.

3:20:52 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for sure. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So those, those in, like the overall big decision, yeah, I don't, I don't, but again, as easy as afterwards to see like all the different things that happen and without a doubt, man, those, uh, [UNKNOWN]: is because of that, I mean, I just always look at on the philosophical side of if you look at what happened to Iraq, you know what I mean and whenever it was, you know, the Arab side and the Kurdish side, you know what I mean is like the same, they were given the same thing, you know, like hey run your stuff. [UNKNOWN]: you know me but it's like it's almost like a certain parts of the world certain people like they need a dictator you mentioned that where it's like at least they held that together kind of deal yeah and to be fair you know hindsight's 2020 and I want to reiterate it's not as much of a pointing a finger in between the blame and just conversational yeah it's it's more of a you know because I don't think you could accurately or genuinely have predicted that [UNKNOWN]: You know, when Obama comes into office, that he would have retracted the forces in a act of way that he did.

3:22:00 [UNKNOWN]: And then when ISIS started to sprout up, that we did basically nothing about it, you could never have predicted that, you know, so, you know, and I know every president and every administration has their reasons for doing what they do. [UNKNOWN]: That's on them to justify or to live with or whatever, but so I am trying to be fair about it. [UNKNOWN]: You know to me the macro is this the micro is sobriety is that well at least the goal should be to not do those things again Yeah, not make those same mistakes again at least. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: The thing is that what muddied the whole thing up man is not having a clear. [UNKNOWN]: What does victory look like? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, do when we lost, I don't remember what years or what presidency is or whatever, but maybe as it comes to the military on our side of the house that we're experiencing is like, when when when when when you lost, when when you can't define victory.

3:22:55 [UNKNOWN]: how do you win? [UNKNOWN]: You can't. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You're saying yourself up or I don't even know what, like that's not even logical. [UNKNOWN]: So especially when I'm talking about the use of military force, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's like saying how can you get to a destination where you don't know what the destination is like, well you're never going to get there. [UNKNOWN]: It's floating around in the ocean, but that's where, but if you look back at it, that's why I always reinforce that thing of, hey, why we initially kicked it all off, you know, mean, it was like, hey, so they fought us over there and couldn't make it over here, you know, like we succeeded in that, yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: But so as you went through your career, you had the mechanical TBI in 2006, a PTSD in TBI, but you were largely unaware of it until a certain point.

3:23:44 [UNKNOWN]: At what point did you really recognize that there was an issue, and what did that look like? [UNKNOWN]: Where, let's see here, it all kind of came to a head between, it all came to a head whenever, [UNKNOWN]: So physically, my body was breaking down. [UNKNOWN]: What I mean by that, 2003 broke my back. [UNKNOWN]: And then deployed two weeks later, or for some reason didn't heal right, you know what I mean, and then 2004. [UNKNOWN]: 2004, I had to have back surgery, six months rehab, made it on the next deployment, and then re-injured it like in seven. [UNKNOWN]: So I couldn't wear kit without taking narcotics.

3:24:25 [UNKNOWN]: And of course, being sober, I'm not going to take narcotics, you know, mean to keep working, and it happened to be around right at, you know, I mean the re-enlistment timeframe, you know, mean for the devil's money, that that bonus, and man at that time, and I was like, man, if I can't wear cake anymore, you know, at that point, I had effectively avoided any BS job. [UNKNOWN]: you know or any non-operational job and so why in the world would I stay in you know just for money I mean not scoffing at that money but not to do six more years man and not be able to that was a 15 k6 year but yeah and man and that but it was going on at that time too is so that was so really what began to like there was a lot of stuff I knew I was dealing with [UNKNOWN]: You know, I knew that I was, you know, the team was a little bit, I had shifted to be in, you know, like 52% more important than my family, which was a thing that I was, you know, had never done.

3:25:22 [UNKNOWN]: And I knew I couldn't kind of stop it and didn't know what was going on with it. [UNKNOWN]: So all these things kind of came together at one time, my physical stuff emotionally, and then, and then physically. [UNKNOWN]: or physically emotionally mentally and then I then I got some testing so because I knew my I lost the ability to visualize also you know how you can look at a GRG and then kind of visual not photographic memory but you know you can visualize this buildings here that was there I kind of lost that ability you know and it was like [UNKNOWN]: That's weird, but okay, I'll just look at my GRG more, and you know, and um, and then I'd have these a huge emotional mood swings, which I'm not me, you know, pretty freaking stable, you know, me and God, so I just haven't mean it like, hey, if I would, something happens to just make me mad, you know what I mean, anyone mad, I would be furious about it, and same thing was sadness, you know what I mean, instead of be a little sad, I'd be like crying, not in front of anybody, but crying, you know my car.

3:26:23 [UNKNOWN]: But then, but anyway, there was always going on and then, man, I couldn't, I wouldn't know where I was. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, wow. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And this was all during, obviously, not in combat. [UNKNOWN]: It was, it was during the time. [UNKNOWN]: We had, we had finished up that, my, what ended up being my last deployment. [UNKNOWN]: You know, when all these things started happening, we were going into a training cycle. [UNKNOWN]: and we were on a training trip and you know and I only had to carry like a 25 pound little rock, a little wrecky rock and it crushed me and so that's what I knew I was done. [UNKNOWN]: So once I was done it was like okay then we're going to start this whole retirement process you know what I mean and then that's when they started the testing the TBI testing and that kind of stuff and and that's when they were like [UNKNOWN]: you know, no jumping, no shooting, no, nothing because all the test results that came back was that, hey, it was 50% kind of operating capacity and then 50% verbal memory, like, yeah, I was jacked up, but whenever I took those tests, [UNKNOWN]: And you know what I mean, and it said I had brain damage, it actually was a relief, because I thought I was losing my mind again.

3:27:33 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, back when everyone was getting sober and lost it. [UNKNOWN]: And then now man, I was like I said, I would even have to, we didn't have the iPhone. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so I had the GPS's, you know, the garments, you know. [UNKNOWN]: But man, I'd have to put my address in the GPS to get from, I mean, it's three turns, you know, from the back gate to where I was living at that time. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: So I was like new. [UNKNOWN]: I was messed up. [UNKNOWN]: You know, me and the war were still cooking. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I don't blame the unit or anybody for that. [UNKNOWN]: I mean that. [UNKNOWN]: You know, we lot of folks get upset about how the military, you know, should, you know, they teach us what to do to come in, but not how to get out. [UNKNOWN]: and man, they shouldn't, because they suck at it.

3:28:15 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, it's like, and I'll just speak unit specific, but you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: The unit was designed to build for one thing and one thing only, you know, and to feed the enemies of our country, and that they're epic at it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, so, and that's what they should be focused on because it takes that much focus. [UNKNOWN]: But at that time, you know, and now they've outsourced a good bit of it. [UNKNOWN]: But when I was going through this next kind of transition phase man, I was like a first one, like they're what, [UNKNOWN]: trying to, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, hey, but because I've been sober this time, like, I'm going to survive. [UNKNOWN]: Like, I had made the decision that I was going to live, you know, and the one thing that I'd never planned for, you know, was living. [UNKNOWN]: And, uh, because I just expected I was going to die at some point, just stats.

3:28:58 [UNKNOWN]: You statistically, you know what you can't, mathematically, you can't keep going and not, uh, [UNKNOWN]: end up on the wall, you know, and so I somewhere, not even consciously, but I had accepted that, you know, because I believed in what we were doing, and I believed who I was doing it with, and if I died doing it, man, like a school with me. [UNKNOWN]: But I lived through it, so I didn't even know what an E8 made for retirement, man. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, and I've made the E9 list, and so that was part of the decision making. [UNKNOWN]: Also, you know, and me, but had to do more years to like, man, I'm just [UNKNOWN]: Anyway, I had TBI, so then as next thing was, I walked into, this is kind of funny, is I walked into the, you know, Walmart Army Hospital there and, you know, full beard, crazy eyes that crazy man and through my ID card on the counter and like, I need an appointment, you know what I mean?

3:29:54 [UNKNOWN]: And so it was like, okay, you know, so I get an appointment, now I'm getting out. [UNKNOWN]: I was a little bit tough to handle when I was in, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like I was always the guy that pushed it, you know, I knew when they said master sergeant's were winners, that was a time to back it off, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So now I'm getting out, what, now I'm like, okay, so on the PTSD forms, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know how you don't answer for it, right? [UNKNOWN]: Everybody knows that, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: If you don't want to lose your clearance, if you don't want to keep, when now I'm getting out, I'm like, okay, y'all want to know? [UNKNOWN]: I'll let you know. [UNKNOWN]: And I was about 90% not 100. [UNKNOWN]: I was about 90% honest on that one.

3:30:35 [UNKNOWN]: And next thing you know, man, like a couple of ladies come out. [UNKNOWN]: looking at me because it was awful. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean went on there and it's like they're like a how long has this been going on. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean as far as nightmare. [UNKNOWN]: You know all the PTSD symptoms and stuff which I now know are mainly moral grief and injury stuff not PTS but but it's like been going on about a year. [UNKNOWN]: It's like well how can we didn't say anything sooner. [UNKNOWN]: You know it's like why didn't want to lose my job? [UNKNOWN]: Why didn't you want to lose your job? [UNKNOWN]: It's like because I was still [UNKNOWN]: Well, because I don't have a job anymore. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it means that who needs therapy here?

3:31:18 [UNKNOWN]: So then, man, man, I was honest, you know, about what was going on inside of me and everything. [UNKNOWN]: So of course, it was cognitive therapy, vestibular therapy, psychological therapy, even got on meds for a little while. [UNKNOWN]: Man, and then just another, I mean, that was like my life for about three and a half months, was just showing up to Walmart doing all of those therapies. [UNKNOWN]: But man, all this time, man, inside like I feel like I am violating, [UNKNOWN]: my code, you know what I mean, the whole quiet professional, the whole hey handle anything, everything in-house, and I'm going outside, you know what I mean of the clothes walls, but I'm going to live, man, and so I just kept praying, and I'm like, man, am I on the right track, am I doing the right thing?

3:32:05 [UNKNOWN]: Because there was no guide, there was nobody say, and like, hey, Tom, this is what you should do. [UNKNOWN]: Like, there was no programs in place, then. [UNKNOWN]: So, [UNKNOWN]: In place, you know, and I didn't even know what that was. [UNKNOWN]: That was the hilarious thing. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, what are you even talking about? [UNKNOWN]: Because I was out, you know, I was deployed, you know, mean or gone. [UNKNOWN]: You know, but my card now let me tie this back into it. [UNKNOWN]: So the, the cognitive therapist. [UNKNOWN]: right um awesome person you know what I mean like super fiery super challenging you know as like uh had met with a few times you know what I mean and it was like okay man this is going to work because she didn't take no shit you know what I mean like she you know she used to guys like you and [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, man.

3:32:51 [UNKNOWN]: She was used to it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and I looked at her name and he just observed and of everything. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, I don't know that name. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: It's time to see a picture with a military dude. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, I don't know what I know that is, you know, and so it was, uh, [UNKNOWN]: So we say that one day she says to me, she's like, hey, I need you to go down to the basement at WOMA and pick up an intendo game boy, right? [UNKNOWN]: This is 2010, timeframes, you know, still no iPhones yet. [UNKNOWN]: We had a blackberry. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: She's like, hey, do you want to go down there and get you like, can you go down there and get it? [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, of course, you know.

3:33:31 [UNKNOWN]: She's like, okay, I'll go down with you because man, it'd take me like two hours. [UNKNOWN]: I would be wandering around in that hospital. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was messed up and so we're walking down there and, you know, kind of uncomfortable, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: We're just my therapist and trying to make small talk, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, hey, you notice that was your husband, you know, your married, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Your husband and military? [UNKNOWN]: He's like, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, oh, cool, you know, and so like, yeah, but he got hurt and I was like, oh, yeah, and he just like, and he got a, you know, me and he was got hurt really bad. [UNKNOWN]: And then she mentioned a couple other things. [UNKNOWN]: And then I said his name, you know what I mean?

3:34:11 [UNKNOWN]: And then. [UNKNOWN]: she looked at me and I looked at her and like oh my god how do you know my name because smart person she was using her maiden name up on the wall because she works with crazy people you know what I mean so she had her maiden name up on the wall but the name that I knew you know what I mean like her husband you know he's like she's like she's like how do you know him you know what I was like I was there when he got hurt [UNKNOWN]: So it's back to that September mission. [UNKNOWN]: No way. [UNKNOWN]: And she's like, uh, and I could tell that she, that she meant like, oh, I was in Iraq. [UNKNOWN]: I could tell she didn't understand the gravity of what I was saying. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's like, no, I was the guy that watched your husband get blown off of the roof that I was just on hours before.

3:34:57 [UNKNOWN]: did one of the odds on that dude and so now I'm on messed up now she's all messed up and we're walking to get my game boy so then we get my game boy Chris we're not talking anymore and I'm thinking like damn it's probably gonna fire me man that [UNKNOWN]: I don't even know I don't I didn't call this her husband to get hurt, you know what I mean like I was in that mix, you know, he hurt really bad, you know, and um, and so Like damn so then okay, so you tomorrow okay, so you tomorrow and uh, some but my what is the odds of that happening, you know, but what it was for me was is that [UNKNOWN]: I was on the right track like God again through a human being showing me like because man I really man I was really questioning everything that I was doing but I didn't know I didn't know what else to do you know I mean other than seek help right I didn't have a problem seeking help I had learned that back in 92 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, when helped needed, but the thing that made me not get help at that point in time wasn't ego or anything before, it was like, because I had that mechanical injury, you know, I mean, in my brain, in my executive functioning, I was stuck on this loop of how did I go from jumping tall buildings to a single bound, you know, to mean to in helping everybody to [UNKNOWN]: What happened?

3:36:19 [UNKNOWN]: I was like, in that loop, you know, and so anyway, I'm getting all this help and then finding that out, you know, and then without getting into the whole long story, then I go to see the psychologist and he's like a Vietnam that that was in the Phoenix project. [UNKNOWN]: No way. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So now I don't, and he's a psychologist, you know, I'm supposed to that. [UNKNOWN]: So obviously I don't have to explain anything to him, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And he's just teaching me how to live, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Not so much about the deep dark, because there wasn't much deep dark stuff that bothered me that, like so much, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: There was a couple of things. [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, I had done a lot of work, I had done a lot of processing, and I just didn't know how to live outside of the military.

3:37:02 [UNKNOWN]: Man, remember, my whole life had been in the military, and then the last 10 years had been about war. [UNKNOWN]: You know, in and out of war, not it. [UNKNOWN]: And so, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: When he would ask me a question, you know, I have two sons, like, he'd say like, how much, how much one on one time do you spend with each of your sons and like? [UNKNOWN]: None. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because, man, in the deployment mode, you know what I mean is like, hey, you got a short time together. [UNKNOWN]: Everybody's together and maximize that time. [UNKNOWN]: You can't get time to be messing around with, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then back on deployment. [UNKNOWN]: But now that that cycle was gone, you know, it was like, you know, and then he's like, how much, you know, how often do you and your wife go out for dinner?

3:37:43 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I'm like? [UNKNOWN]: We don't. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but and because I respected this man, you know, when I knew he was going to ask me, you know, I started implementing these changes in my life, man, and um, and that because that's really what I needed. [UNKNOWN]: I needed to help with, with like, uh, these just, I mean, not help, mean and like show me, just give me things to do, man, and then leave it up to me to execute those things, man, and I don't know what to do that, you know, and um, and on the TV, I said, man, it was still, you know, a good amount of struggles, you know, and I mean, so once I got out, [UNKNOWN]: I just lived off the résumé for a while, pistol car being CQB, Swatt Tactis, Sniper, you know, and so I just was paying the bills, you know, I imagine that, do gets out, starts his own company, you know what I mean, like, so the neighbors with me and my brother, you know, it's my actual brother, which my actual brother, me and I him were in the 80s second together, we were in group together and we were at the unit together.

3:38:42 [UNKNOWN]: That's the whole other dude you need to have on here, man. [UNKNOWN]: I mean I had no idea what like he hasn't been on the circuit yet. [UNKNOWN]: I would love to have him on, that's incredible, we'll see there as long as you were. [UNKNOWN]: No, not at the same, but he was, we were in the 80s second together, so there's five years between us in years, but only two years in the army because he came in when he was 17 and I came in when I was 20. [UNKNOWN]: And so we were in the 80s second together, but different brigades, we were in special forces together, but different groups, both 18 Charlie's, and then, and they were out at the unit together, and different sub-units, and he was there as a breacher, I was there as an operator.

3:39:23 [UNKNOWN]: And so, and we stayed in, he ended up getting out before, you know, retirement-wise. [UNKNOWN]: We got out a couple of years before me, about a year and a half before me. [UNKNOWN]: Do you want a wild story? [UNKNOWN]: Are there other brothers that have both been at the UN together? [UNKNOWN]: That you know of? [UNKNOWN]: It may or may not have been. [UNKNOWN]: I know what that means. [UNKNOWN]: Does he look like you? [UNKNOWN]: I, I think we look similar. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: There's some stuff on the inner web out there about about him. [UNKNOWN]: You know that, especially now after AI, there's like all things like as this, he's done. [UNKNOWN]: He's done some interviews. [UNKNOWN]: Me and him did the first, the first thing in it. [UNKNOWN]: The first one we did was in 2012, it was for NRA, Patriot Profiles, Life of Duty, and me and my brother did that one, and it was 2011 or 2012, and with both of us, neither had many therapies like we were rough, but we did know, and you're both sober at time, and then [UNKNOWN]: it man, and it was like, you know, it's like, hey, we'll do this, but we're giving you no cool ass wash stories.

3:40:32 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, we're going to talk about PTSD of veterans suicide because they're in that time. [UNKNOWN]: No one knew about the 22 a day. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, that wasn't a thing, even known until afterwards, you know. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: But, man, it was, but we did that video and then, because of that video, a lot of the cops and stuff that I was working with in that time screwed me for the rest of my current life, as far as making more videos and doing this stuff, because after we did that first one, I'm like, man, yeah, that's never happened again. [UNKNOWN]: You're not doing it, but then whenever I was at [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, hey, man, because you know how they put us up on past a pedestal.

3:41:12 [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, out of respect, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're like, whoa, they said for you to get on there and to talk about your struggles and to admit that you struggle and have problems gave me permission to talk about my own. [UNKNOWN]: That's powerful. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, when he said that to me, I was like, [UNKNOWN]: Cool man, and I walked off because I was overwhelmed. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was like, He probably thought you were being a dick. [UNKNOWN]: I don't, probably, but I was just, I was like, I didn't, again, because I hadn't had a lot of therapies, man. [UNKNOWN]: I was at Shaw Show, overwhelmed. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I was in such a new phase. [UNKNOWN]: Overwhelmed emotionally a lot at that time, anyway.

3:41:53 [UNKNOWN]: And then with that, he meant it. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, you know, that hits the heart. [UNKNOWN]: But then I wasn't walking off on process and I'm like, fuck man, now I gotta keep doing this because I mean the only reason why I do any of this is to help you. [UNKNOWN]: It's to help people, man. [UNKNOWN]: I give two shits about people knowing who I am and what I've done. [UNKNOWN]: all of that crap man. [UNKNOWN]: It is the the only reason is because of that freaking guy. [UNKNOWN]: And I own who his name is. [UNKNOWN]: But he probably does and I hope he listens and I'm going to hold you and contempt for the rest of my days. [UNKNOWN]: But no man but for real it was man when every said that it was like because then it logically I could see that because I look at man right when I was getting sober I didn't talk about it.

3:42:39 [UNKNOWN]: But dude the guys that were in those rooms of AA, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like a cigar bill, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: He was Korea Vietnam, some of those these guys are World War II, Korea Vietnam. [UNKNOWN]: You know, he's got three gold stars, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Was a medic of World War II, like, that means these dudes that I'm sitting in the room with, which also normalized me being in those rooms. [UNKNOWN]: It's like if these guys are my heroes that I've been reading about my whole adult life and some of them actually were names in the books [UNKNOWN]: And here they are in there, man, then that means it's okay that I'm here because look the fuck who's sitting next to me, you know what I mean is like a normalize it.

3:43:22 [UNKNOWN]: It normalized that man and that ended up all so as you can see all these different things I mean eventually we'll talk about warrior's heart but all all that is is an extension of all of these things man throughout throughout the way, man. [UNKNOWN]: Did you ever get any of the hyperbaric chamber or magnet therapy dead man was that effective hyperbaric chamber man? [UNKNOWN]: It was great on my body and I did 43 rides so I didn't just do a couple you know me and anything that I've ever done and promote [UNKNOWN]: or anything I promote I've done you know me so for me it felt great on my body like all my bad you know me and all the the bad broken stuff because it oxygenated it so much and it was great for my brain from my particular brain injury it just irritated it didn't get better no my one of my really good friends [UNKNOWN]: blown up, you know what I mean?

3:44:23 [UNKNOWN]: Equal worst don't know, but with his brain injury, life changing. [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely, life changing. [UNKNOWN]: The magnetic therapy, TMS, life changing for me. [UNKNOWN]: And I didn't get, I didn't start that journey until 2017, man. [UNKNOWN]: So it's fantastic to hear on both accounts. [UNKNOWN]: So for you, could you put a percentage on, you know, if your brain was 100, you know, the day you joined the army, where it is now comparatively? [UNKNOWN]: Man, I am so for me, the first time that I did it, so my point of reference is, too, is, because at all, you also have to look at it holistically, like my whole life, what's going on.

3:45:05 [UNKNOWN]: So obviously, my daily habits and nightly habits are good. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I'm sober, I'm helping others, I'm spiritually active, I'm emotionally active, I'm still going to therapy, you know what I'm, you know what I'm with my children, with my, [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, I've got a good lifestyle going on, which you know, nothing's a silver bullet. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and if, in the reason why I'm, and you emphasize the importance of those things is a lot of guys look for these one and done kind of things, man, it doesn't exist. [UNKNOWN]: Whether it's plant medicine, whether it's, you know, this, whether it's that, man, if you got to have balance in all areas of your life or improvement, relative to you, whatever that is. [UNKNOWN]: So for me in 2017 when I went in, man, I was not doing, I was doing good, man, but I was struggling still cognitively.

3:45:52 [UNKNOWN]: And a lot of my emotional irregularity was coming from my lack of cognitive cognition. [UNKNOWN]: What I mean by that is like, hey, you get a receipt for having dinner at the hotel, you know, in the evening. [UNKNOWN]: and you take the total, you write the tip underneath, you add the top to the bottom, and that gives you the total for it. [UNKNOWN]: I would look at that and know that I know what I'm supposed to do here, but I can't do it. [UNKNOWN]: And so now I don't have Alzheimer's.

3:46:33 [UNKNOWN]: Otherwise, I just be like, whoa, what is this? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I know that I don't know what I can do this, but I can't recall it. [UNKNOWN]: That's disturbing as hell, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's like a problem. [UNKNOWN]: So therefore, my emotions start creeping up a little bit. [UNKNOWN]: Well, you know what emotions do to cognition. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, so a lot of that came from my lack of cognition and no one at that time had addressed the pure TBI because they'll say TBI symptoms PTSD symptoms they overlap agreed they do overlap but the parts where they don't overlap mean in pure TBI we're not doing anything about the neurons in my head [UNKNOWN]: And so whenever I went to that, when I did eight, my first eight weeks of that, in 2017, man, it improved my quality of life, minimum 30 percent, which at that time in my life, if you would have given me 1 percent, I'd have been a static.

3:47:28 [UNKNOWN]: Because at that point in time, I was meeting with all the psychologists, with the cognition people. [UNKNOWN]: The only thing that was left for me was the neurotropics. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean was, hey, ProVigil, try this, and I was like, hey, I'm open to meds. [UNKNOWN]: but I actually plan on living longer now and you know, natural brain degradation, like I'm gonna need that shit. [UNKNOWN]: And if I go, use it now, I'm Winchester on, now I'm just slobbering at the VA, you know what I mean in the corner. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so, but I did that man and it was 30% but for me, [UNKNOWN]: about every six to eight months is the sweet spot for me to go through it again, you know, men as well as a shelf life for you.

3:48:09 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, and I've, man, I have never, there's only two things that you're going to hear me preach about, man, and that's that AA blue book and TMS, man, that electromagnetic their trans, cranial magnetic. [UNKNOWN]: Those are the trick on me and I've never met someone from our population Now I know hundreds of them that have gone through that treatment and didn't walk away And say I'm so glad I did that some of them again some people what helps in different ways cognition sleep [UNKNOWN]: Some people with pain, anxiety, depression, it's FDA approved. [UNKNOWN]: It just got FDA approved for PTSD.

3:48:50 [UNKNOWN]: So 2027, that'll be able to be collected by my insurance also. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, it's good. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, so guys will be able to get it. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I preach it, but the thing is, is if you're drinking, and you're an alcoholic, right? [UNKNOWN]: So I mean, Dr. Dishon, your normal social drinker, but if you're drinking it, it undoes all that. [UNKNOWN]: you should never drink again you know what I mean like remember though this is your brain that's your brain on drugs you know what I mean this like it's it's not good for you you know and um but again I'm not anti alcohol by any means it's it's just like manifests work if it's helping you or not [UNKNOWN]: But I mean, most of my buddies that could benefit from the TBI and the PTS and the other therapies that are out there, man, if you're out, it's like, what's going to kill us first?

3:49:38 [UNKNOWN]: Just like if you're going on any objective, man, there's a whole bunch of shit that can kill us, but what do we worry about? [UNKNOWN]: Hey, what's in the next? [UNKNOWN]: What's going to kill us first? [UNKNOWN]: One room to the next room to the next room, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And so if I have, you know, if I'm struggling with self-medication, and I go set with the Dalai Lama, you know, and get spiritually enlightened, and then start ripping it up again. [UNKNOWN]: Guess what? [UNKNOWN]: Man, it's not going to work, because no one wants to be an alcoholic or an addict, man. [UNKNOWN]: No one. [UNKNOWN]: Including myself. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But the thing is, is that [UNKNOWN]: Once you get that, you know what I mean taking care of and address, to get cleaned up, trained up, you know, and on the path, then you can enjoy all of these other things, but when you try to do it reverse, it doesn't work.

3:50:21 [UNKNOWN]: I see the guys all the time where they've tried it, and I get it, man, that's what I would've tried to do too, man. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: How does seeing that progress and going through all these different modalities, treatment lies, some successful, some not, how did that transition into warrior's heart? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, so it did, just on that treatment side of the house, we don't do anything out there that I haven't gone through. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's one-on-one kind of thing. [UNKNOWN]: So that's how all those modalities, you know what I mean, translated into that piece. [UNKNOWN]: And all those lessons learned throughout the years, it's just like, because something that we didn't touch on, you know, [UNKNOWN]: You know, is that we also, you know, mean, one thing that didn't touch on was, like, even though I did all the things that, you know, get my sobriety and keep my sobriety, we didn't talk about process and none of the emotions behind all the trauma and everything.

3:51:17 [UNKNOWN]: You know, I had huge struggles, you know, mean with the processing of the emotions, before 9-11. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So the war thing and that's what a lot of guys realize, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: The war thing? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, that's a thing and there's a lot of stuff that needs to be worked on But with most guys, especially alcoholics or addict, it didn't start there. [UNKNOWN]: You would do an issue before, right? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So it was like, hey, come on, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But that's why at Worish, you get a trauma clinician, and you get a licensed chemical dependency counselor, man, because you can't heal one part with the other, it's like, does the alcohol in the drugs bring up the trauma? [UNKNOWN]: You mean, or does the trial have in the unprocessed trauma or unprocessed emotions, you know, bring up the drink in the drug, and it's like, hey, hit both of them, and then you'll be good, you know.

3:52:05 [UNKNOWN]: Where was the light switch moment for you in terms of wanting to start Worish hard, and how did you? [UNKNOWN]: Man, I've always been obviously passionate about working with other alcoholics and addicts. [UNKNOWN]: And that doesn't have to be just our population. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But first responders and military folks, you know, veterans is always been passionate about any of them. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, even from like, even whenever I was bullied and Iraq, I'd be on the aridium. [UNKNOWN]: Like, calling my sponsor used a good fucking meeting, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like, what are you doing? [UNKNOWN]: Like, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So, but it was my tether to reality, you know, my, the rest of my reality. [UNKNOWN]: And so, I was always super passionate about that. [UNKNOWN]: Like I said, whenever I got out and we started working, I was doing mainly working with law enforcement, but we'd also do what we call fun and guns.

3:52:51 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: How, where you take civilian folks and they experience some piss with some markets and see if some CQB, you know, not really just kind of moving around inside the house. [UNKNOWN]: And so we do one of that, and that's what got me into Worcestershire, so I always had, and when I got out, man, I was super involved in a veteran suicide, because again, 10, 11 time frame, no one even knew the 22. [UNKNOWN]: Like when I was digging around and found that out, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It was like, [UNKNOWN]: can't be real. [UNKNOWN]: Obviously it was and then even more so. [UNKNOWN]: So everything was just about even that awareness. [UNKNOWN]: So we started elder heart mission 22, me and my buddy Magnus, we started that together, still up and running and doing great.

3:53:33 [UNKNOWN]: That was just for their awareness. [UNKNOWN]: And then, um, but so we're doing all that stuff and then we're doing the funding guns and we put on this one funding gun. [UNKNOWN]: You know, if real big about intention, you know what to mean and miracles happen at 90 degrees, I don't know if you know who that, but it's a, or heard of that. [UNKNOWN]: But so the intention of this and me and my brother and our little crew of guys, you know what to mean was like we put it on for, [UNKNOWN]: uh... the white p.o. [UNKNOWN]: young president's organization of your your familiar uh... spoken for more right so it's a it's a good network to be in right so we we got a uh... three-day course posted on this you're gonna love it it was called the u.s. army special operations leadership experience down down down but you know it's all the stuff that those guys you know in the guys that have it experienced it you know i mean they want to experience you know a portion of it man and it was like uh... no shit [UNKNOWN]: three day like do like you would like kind of hesitate sign enough for that I'm going to mean because you would see the what's not written in there in the waivers that you were signed you know because we made them sign like a slap in a punch waiver and all of it man and um [UNKNOWN]: So we put these guys through it, you know, for three days, man, and unknown distance on Run Rocks.

3:54:49 [UNKNOWN]: It was hot as hell to man. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it was, and it was a train, you know, like any of the courses that are on there, it was like a one or two months train up, you know, physical, these guys were already triathlons, go getters, fighters, and stuff, you know. [UNKNOWN]: So I don't know, I think there was 10 or 12 there. [UNKNOWN]: Maybe eight, and I don't remember what it was. [UNKNOWN]: And one of them was a guy named Josh Landon, who ended up becoming a partner with Warrior Shark. [UNKNOWN]: Then no, if from nothing, do the ran rehabs, yay, don't care, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: And so one of the things, there were a couple of things that happened that were different, was on one of those nights we did, hey, um, [UNKNOWN]: what we call a warrior's experience and what a warrior's experience is and I get in the backstory of it but it's it's where like what I mentioned that story the three day story you know what I mean it was like the first time that I mentioned even part of that story I couldn't even get it out of my mouth.

3:55:45 [UNKNOWN]: I couldn't, couldn't get it in my out of my mouth, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So the thing is, is that I have to back up a little bit to get us there, but I think it'll be important along the way. [UNKNOWN]: So whenever I was going through all those struggles, but I was getting out and then I was out and I was getting all those therapies, but I picked up this one book called War in the Soul by a guy named Edward Tick and um, um, [UNKNOWN]: Sure, that version of that story is that he was in the 60s, 70s, he was a psychologist, you know, at the VA, right? [UNKNOWN]: So he's got all those Vietnam career, what were two veterans treating him? [UNKNOWN]: He's like, we're not helping these guys, man. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so he takes it upon himself to dive into ancient cultures and find out why they didn't have these problems that we know of, you know, suicide, addiction, you know, all the stuff that was going on even then and what they do to heal that.

3:56:38 [UNKNOWN]: and paraphrasing a lot, you know, but in that book, what he found was that there's two major things, you know, to mean that the reason why those cultures, let's say, use Native Americans, just as an example, why they didn't have those things, they didn't have all these issues. [UNKNOWN]: Number one is they had warrior elders. [UNKNOWN]: Right chief many feathers brave one feather hanging low, you know what I mean is that So they had these elder warriors you know because that's who they were it was warriors Help bring other warriors through it right and now the majority of our would be elders that have all that experience Other most screwed up you may because no one's taught you know you know what I mean so not by default you know We're in that negative [UNKNOWN]: place with our warrior elders, and the other thing was the relentless love and support of the community in which the warrior solved.

3:57:37 [UNKNOWN]: right so you can see the disparity you know in those two things only one percent serves you know and you know and so just the divide between the regular community member in the warrior you know is is huge to begin with you know what I mean and the warrior doesn't make that better because they're like civilians they don't understand you know what I mean it's like yeah why don't they understand you don't freaking talk to them but anyway so anyway so those were being got those were being missed you know so [UNKNOWN]: The thing was, and so it was the job of the warrior, the elder to help the warrior, not the community. [UNKNOWN]: It was the job of the community to love them, to feed them, to procreate, to do all of that, but not to fix them.

3:58:18 [UNKNOWN]: Now, and so would imagine, imagine if there was a warrior elder in our group, you know, when we came back from our first real combat mission, they would have said to us, like, hey, check it out. [UNKNOWN]: you're going to have nightmares. [UNKNOWN]: You're going to feel like you don't belong. [UNKNOWN]: Your prayers don't feel like they're going to make the ceiling. [UNKNOWN]: You're going to be have some little mood outbursts. [UNKNOWN]: You know, they would give us all our symptoms. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then they would say like hey man, it's all right. [UNKNOWN]: We're going to keep training. [UNKNOWN]: We're going to keep providing for the tribe and working through it. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then, uh, [UNKNOWN]: So that's what we got told, but we're at all came together, it was around the fire, right, because that's what they talked.

3:58:59 [UNKNOWN]: That's what they, when they shared their great victories of battle, who told those stories, the warriors told the stories, because they were the ones and who told us the ones of great tragedy, the warriors were telling those stories, right? [UNKNOWN]: So at that moment, when the telling of the stories and the stories I'm talking about is the ones we don't talk about amongst ourselves. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, the emotions that come behind all of those things, you know, the real stories and so we, so we did that right so I proved it out I won't get into all that big long piece of the story, but we proved that out of that night. [UNKNOWN]: in that group of guys after we had appropriately diminished their capacity to resist, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, we gave them the message.

3:59:47 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Like an example would be like, read an award. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And hey, here's this award. [UNKNOWN]: It's all accurate and true. [UNKNOWN]: And now I'm going to tell you the rest of the story. [UNKNOWN]: No. [UNKNOWN]: was not in there, right? [UNKNOWN]: And so that happened that night when they were there, and I reason why I bring Josh up because it ties back into it, you know, and I'm just, and again, I'm rough around the edges, you know, and I'm [UNKNOWN]: It may be a little mean-spirited, you know, I mean with a group of rich guys in front of me, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I grew up poor, so you know, I mean, are you got a little resentment going on? [UNKNOWN]: But anyway, you know, they just experienced that, and I was like, hey, and I talked to him about the 22-a-day suicide, you know what, you know what I mean?

4:00:34 [UNKNOWN]: I said that then, I was like, and not only the suicide, right, is like, now you just learn the cost. [UNKNOWN]: You just heard the cost of someone that's not dead, but still struggling and what they're [UNKNOWN]: As I can you all guys, I mean major fortunes and your businesses, you know what I mean because of this country and everything that is afforded by the protectors of this country, which are these guys right here. [UNKNOWN]: As I can now you know the suicides, now you know the problems, what are you going to fucking do about it? [UNKNOWN]: I was really intentional when I said that, probably a little too intentional, but for Josh, when I said that to him, he said it was like a spear going right through his heart, man, where, because it was again just the truth, man, it was like, hey, this country, these people, business, it all exists, man, because of these individual warriors.

4:01:21 [UNKNOWN]: the answer to the call and you know whenever they go so that affected him greatly we finished up that course you know and he told me who he was and Josh you know me and he had run him and his wife Lisa they had run a successful as called journey healing centers they had three facilities and Utah three and Phoenix smaller facilities but you know multiple locations like K we were thinking of our next one being you know one for veterans and first [UNKNOWN]: It's kind of like stepbrothers, you know what I mean, like you want to do karate in the garage, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Hell yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah man, it's kind of like thanks. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: We met together, we took our families out there and meet one another.

4:02:04 [UNKNOWN]: See if we were compatible, you know, because we knew it was going to be a lot of hard work to create something that didn't currently exist. [UNKNOWN]: And so obviously that, you know, proofed out, and then I just kept running shoe houses and paying the bills, living off credit cards for years until 15, you know, whenever we decided to create this idea, you know, and mean of warriors heart, you know, and it was a place for, you know, for only this population. [UNKNOWN]: You know, we're still the only place that treats just this population. [UNKNOWN]: Really. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, so for chemical dependency and dual diagnosis, and we created all that. [UNKNOWN]: We created out of their life experiences of number one being sober themselves and their own personal journey, but also how to efficiently and effectively run or rehab on the business side of the house.

4:02:55 [UNKNOWN]: And I said effectively, there's many of business to start, but I mean, they figured it out. [UNKNOWN]: And then from my side of the house, from my wife's side of the house, we brought to the table was the warrior experience, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And everything, the years of sobriety and the population. [UNKNOWN]: So I mean, we have a true partnership where they need us and we need them, you know, amendment, which is very important, because I'm sure as you have experienced in business, post-military, both of us can do the same thing. [UNKNOWN]: One of us is going to become [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: In a matter of time. [UNKNOWN]: So, for the cool thing with us, we have a true partnership, man, but they're desire for the population, our desire for the population, and it's all we've ever done, especially me and my wife.

4:03:41 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: She's been taking care of this for a long time. [UNKNOWN]: She'd been taking care of this population since she was 19 years old. [UNKNOWN]: She'd been doing me in like all her life to be in the back seat, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And full support, and not just taking a bit like full support, like Spartan Queen support. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: All of it. [UNKNOWN]: And that's all we've ever done. [UNKNOWN]: That sounds like an amazing woman and partner you have for sure.

4:04:23 [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, man, I've waved, you know, me and leveled up with that. [UNKNOWN]: Well, you know, I mean, it's kind of makes you wonder about her choice making it last but no, man, it's, and that's all we've ever done and that's why two date, you know, it comes like, how do you know? [UNKNOWN]: if you're winning and it's like someone gave me $500 million right now what would you do you know it'd be like man I keep doing what I'm doing not buy some cool shit but yeah man I would just it's always ever known as all we want to know and the mission is equally important as life or death you know so so it fits you know to me and in our and it works for us you know and especially [UNKNOWN]: You mean our sons, you know, being in this population and of this population, just as parents.

4:05:03 [UNKNOWN]: It's another, I mean, you know what I would. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I'm like, I got a three-time why, you know, to me why I do what I do. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: That's incredible, man. [UNKNOWN]: I love to hear it in a very inspiring work. [UNKNOWN]: Um, what would you say, Warriors Hearts Mission Statement is? [UNKNOWN]: So in our mission statement, it is a warrior's healing warriors. [UNKNOWN]: It sounds like a catchy slogan, man, but it's absolutely builds on what has done historically. [UNKNOWN]: Like we provide the space, because the number one thing that we do is we ask warriors to be emotionally vulnerable.

4:05:49 [UNKNOWN]: That's like the biggest as like shoot me in the face how about that you know what I mean Versus like let me let me set down with you and tell you how I'm feeling and be emotionally vulnerable like that would be the last thing You so so we are that's what we're asking them to do not physically vulnerable but emotionally vulnerable and in order for that to happen [UNKNOWN]: You have to be in a secure environment, right, which equals the feeling of safe. [UNKNOWN]: Like, hey, I'm secure. [UNKNOWN]: We don't like safe spaces. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But secure spaces. [UNKNOWN]: We're with people who understand us, you know, mean in the staff, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And we're doing the hard work. [UNKNOWN]: So we provide this subject matter of experts. [UNKNOWN]: Like, we need the clinicians, you know, the sites to [UNKNOWN]: make us cry and crack us open and all that stuff.

4:06:33 [UNKNOWN]: But the true healing man happens around the fire pit. [UNKNOWN]: It happens in the wood shop. [UNKNOWN]: It happens when you're fishing, when there's one warrior talking about another warrior. [UNKNOWN]: Because you know what I mean in our population, you don't we don't have to talk about mentorship. [UNKNOWN]: We don't have to talk about leadership. [UNKNOWN]: We know that man, if you see someone that's hurt and worse than you, you help them. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: That's our way. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So all of this thing is happens, man. [UNKNOWN]: And what we're able to do [UNKNOWN]: is to provide that space and the subject matter experts, you know, mean for that literal magic to happen, man. [UNKNOWN]: And the magic is warriors, heal them warriors. [UNKNOWN]: And so it's a hard and it's a big job. [UNKNOWN]: But I think it'll be further explains it, man, about as like what it is, is that [UNKNOWN]: Like Warriors Heart is where the loss find their way home.

4:07:24 [UNKNOWN]: It's where the broken find their power and it's where the forgotten are remembered forever. [UNKNOWN]: That's awesome. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah man, so that's who we are, that's why we are, that's what we do. [UNKNOWN]: And because the big thing that we talk about, you know when guys show up on site, we say welcome home, you know, because as we all know, man, I've been physically here, [UNKNOWN]: but it took me a while to get my heart back here and my brain back here and my spirit back here. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so that's the thing and we tell guys, welcome home, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And they can feel it immediately. [UNKNOWN]: And some guys, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I mean it a little bit overwhelmed with it. [UNKNOWN]: You know the guys like, yes, it my fucking home, you know.

4:08:07 [UNKNOWN]: I mean it's like, I got you, brother. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: But two weeks later, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: When he's a battle buddy for the new guy coming in, he'll be saying welcome home. [UNKNOWN]: Because then they eventually understand [UNKNOWN]: because home is where you go when no one wants you know I mean home is where you go when you got to refit reorganize, recalibrate, get your ship back together you know what I mean like all of those kind of things man and that's and that's what we do man and we do it better than anyone else we've got [UNKNOWN]: You know, for 10 years now we've been doing it, like a decade without almost 4700 come through. [UNKNOWN]: We've got six years of third party data collection, you know what I mean on our national average and how we just blow everything out of the water.

4:08:50 [UNKNOWN]: I mean like we've truly moved ourselves as far as we know in the industry of the subject matter experts in what we do, which is inpatient dual diagnosis, you know. [UNKNOWN]: it's a two-week process generally is that 42-day minimum okay and is it in patient yeah yeah yeah man this is a good old rehab welcome rehab you know and to me but it's not man what we know is is that it's just training you're either trained or untrained [UNKNOWN]: Is it a specific to substance abuse or other guys that just have to you know primary diagnosis is a chemical dependencies with secondary all the rest of the alphabet soup, you know PTSD, you know me ADHD all of it TBI, you know me, but it is, but primary diagnosis is chemical dependency so you have to be skill for medicating, you know.

4:09:41 [UNKNOWN]: And is there is there a non-profit aspect to it, or is it a cost program for profit? [UNKNOWN]: For profit. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: For the guy that's struggling, super hard, dependent on something, has no idea where to turn, who to turn to, where to go, what advice would you give him as far as coming to you guys, or going through the VA, or kind of how to navigate? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so that's the thing with us being poor for profit. [UNKNOWN]: We have our end contract in network with the community and network with the VA, so they can probably get a VA or I'll think come in, we're the same thing with trycare, same thing with Blue Cross Blue Shield, they know what I mean, because all the years that I've worked the non-profit piece with mission 22 with elder, you know what I mean?

4:10:27 [UNKNOWN]: Just in that world, a learned big lesson. [UNKNOWN]: And that lesson is if the money runs out, [UNKNOWN]: you're done. [UNKNOWN]: It doesn't matter how many lives you change, it doesn't matter who you're helping man. [UNKNOWN]: And so I learned that and the hardest thing in the world is to get this raise money, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And so with us being a for-profit, it does a couple of different things and enables us to collect from the insurance companies and from the community care network. [UNKNOWN]: and then it also gives us hippa compliance, so whenever it comes to, you know, folks that call and hey, it's so-and-so there, it's like, hey, can't confirm or deny that they're here and don't call here anymore, general, so-and-so, or chief, so-and-so, or whatever, so it provides a measure of anonymity for the guys, because you know what I mean, our population.

4:11:15 [UNKNOWN]: you know what I mean they need they need as much anonymity as they can right you know and it gives us the ability to pay the own bill so when someone calls or they refer to you know the admissions advocates do immediately what they say they start advocating for them [UNKNOWN]: you know, because there's guys that call that don't, you know, mean we also are in line with Gary Sinese Foundation, wounded warrior with, you know, all the avalanche, all the other ones, because there's some warriors that don't have any money and they don't have any means, and they don't even have VA benefits well because they got a dishonorable discharge. [UNKNOWN]: So they don't have the A-benefits anyway, you know, a lot of those results of the war and trauma and all of that kind of stuff.

4:11:56 [UNKNOWN]: But so that's the one thing we pride ourselves big on, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: It's being able to get guys in no matter what it is we need to do. [UNKNOWN]: No. [UNKNOWN]: now it's amazing. [UNKNOWN]: So for a veteran that does have a VA access with the correct procedure be to go to the VA and request workers heart or how. [UNKNOWN]: The first thing to do is contact warriors are okay. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man, because again, then our advocates will guide them through that piece, you know, man, because they'll ask them, do you have try care, do you have this, do you have that? [UNKNOWN]: If you don't, then they can direct them to, okay, here's your next steps. [UNKNOWN]: Because, man, there is a double-edged sword, I don't know if you experienced it as a veteran, but there's so much that's out there now, it's overwhelming.

4:12:42 [UNKNOWN]: Especially if you're someone, because if you look at the demographic of someone, the 80% rule of the demographic, they're someone that needs our kind of help, man, they can't even advocate for themselves. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: They're struggling with chemical dependency, they've burned a lot of people, a lot of stuff to the ground, so they need someone to advocate for them, you know? [UNKNOWN]: in an amazing program and ten years track record is impossible to debate that it isn't super effective and well-meaning. [UNKNOWN]: What have I asked you that I should have? [UNKNOWN]: I don't know, and one of the things that came in our try to go over it real quick, man, is like, as it relates to leading up to why what we do, we do at Warriors Heart with address and the trauma, the moral grief and injury aspect of it, and a lot of that goes all the way back to childhood too.

4:13:37 [UNKNOWN]: It's not war stuff. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: A lot of our population comes from rough spots, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So there's a lot to clean up that made us good at our jobs, even. [UNKNOWN]: But whenever I was at like the 80 second and doing all those things and like I did a I did a jump 50th anniversary into Normandy. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, nice. [UNKNOWN]: Jumped into jump master does an E5 in the 80 second and we'll see 130 you know what I mean and they're so is epic right and um so we're there 50th anniversary you know during that time frame the those old timers were pretty surprised still [UNKNOWN]: you know, and they were jumping in and everything. [UNKNOWN]: So we were able to hang out with them during the day, you know, meaning they're, they're turned to love, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And I landed over there, broke my leg, shot three guys over here.

4:14:21 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, they're, we know we're in the space, man. [UNKNOWN]: I can't even, like, that's wild. [UNKNOWN]: That's crazy. [UNKNOWN]: But they're in the space, and during the day, they're like that, you know what I mean, man, and then, and as a 25-year-old man, you know what I mean watching these my heroes, and then man, once the drinks got a certain place, once the evening happened, I watched them come apart, completely come apart. [UNKNOWN]: You mean, feet over the core, and I mean, yeah, I mean, like, totally, you know, me some of them not so bad, other was man, and all that kept running through my mind was the one message was like, this doesn't go away, like it doesn't just go away, because here it was.

4:15:05 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's 50 years later. [UNKNOWN]: And this dude is all like, and no judgment in any means. [UNKNOWN]: And that generation, there was no fair, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: I didn't even, they grew up in the depression, dude. [UNKNOWN]: Like, it makes our stories look like a cakewalk, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And then when I was in 82nd, I went to a 173rd, Vietnam, 173rd dudes, like they're re-reuned, which most of the ranger companies supported the 173rd, so they were already all there. [UNKNOWN]: And it was like, [UNKNOWN]: more miss and body parts and one spot, then probably on the planet, you know, and [UNKNOWN]: And again, man, all these stories, everything's going good.

4:15:45 [UNKNOWN]: And then when they even enhance, you know, and then the alcohol, the drugs, it doesn't go away. [UNKNOWN]: It doesn't go away, it doesn't go away, man. [UNKNOWN]: And so whenever I went through my own stuff, you know what I mean, it helped me, because it's like, hey, okay, it doesn't go away. [UNKNOWN]: You have to do something about it, right? [UNKNOWN]: You know, which is, which everybody does stuff differently. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean, but I have to do something about it, man. [UNKNOWN]: not go on a skeleton which you know what I mean but if stuff's coming up in my life that is impeding my freedom and my love of life and my love of my family I should probably do something about it man and I'm so all of that stuff man was just let me know that in myself and in others it's like yeah dude [UNKNOWN]: you can white knuckle at all day long and not just how I'm out drinking or drug and but if you got stuff in the in the cellar down there man like it usually come out so the most in our pertune times also so hey might as well get ahead of it man but you know we have to address the emotional aspects of it you know and then it becomes doable because I don't ever want those stories to not be deeply emotional like I do [UNKNOWN]: I don't want them to go away, but what I do want to go away is how they affect me, you know how they use to affect me, like the intensity of them, you know, to be at a medium to moderate, you know, you know, scalability, you know.

4:17:08 [UNKNOWN]: What guidance would you give spouses, children, families, if their husband or father or brother or son, is that guy that needs warriors' heart, but is either in denial or just doesn't know what to do, what guidance do you give them and how to handle that? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but the best guidance that I've seen whenever it comes to a family member is to the reason why I'm doing this podcast. [UNKNOWN]: So this has been the best tool for that scenario, because a lot of times for a family member you can't come front them depending on where they're at in the journey.

4:17:49 [UNKNOWN]: You can't really come front them, but you can say, hey dad, [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, check out this video. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, hey, check out this podcast. [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: Because whenever, because it takes a warrior to heal the warrior, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: We only listen to us, you know? [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's just how it is. [UNKNOWN]: Right, wrong or indifferent, like the who gets our attention is our own one way or the other. [UNKNOWN]: So a man like, so that way it's kind of not a syrup tissues, but kind of a flanking maneuver, you know what I mean [UNKNOWN]: Like, hey, they watch this podcast, they watch this documentary, they listen to this, you know, try to get them to hit it from a warrior's perspective, to be able to do it, you know what I mean?

4:18:30 [UNKNOWN]: And then, because I don't know as a family member, you know, I would just be given hypothetical because I was the guy as a family member who has other people, family members that are struggling, the best that I can do is love them and support them to the best of my ability. [UNKNOWN]: be honest with them, you know, tell them how much I love them, and stand off from them if I have to, you know what I mean because it's like they have to do what they have to do, you know, but that would be as far as technique-wise, you know, be as to take care of yourself, and but also like this is the best way to do it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Slip something in on them. [UNKNOWN]: Now, what an amazing journey, incredible story, inspiring work that you're doing now.

4:19:12 [UNKNOWN]: And I'm just a few honored to be able to sit down with you for the day. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm just so thankful for all the work that you've done on yourself and all the help that you've given so many veterans because it's a big number of people to change their lives and probably save most of them. [UNKNOWN]: And I just can't thank enough for all your hard work and faith and support of the community and everything that you've done. [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for that. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I appreciate you taking the time and spending it with us and coming on the show, and if there's anything else you'd like to add, I'd love for it. [UNKNOWN]: Man, I would just say thank you for having me, and I really appreciate it, and I appreciate how you utilize your platform, because you have a great platform, you know what I mean to get this message across, because a lot of a still, or [UNKNOWN]: business owners that don't got enough money to put into marketing, man, and, yeah, but I mean seriously, you know what I mean, thanks for what you do to because it all matters.

4:20:14 [UNKNOWN]: You mean it's like we're all this little ecosystem that are doing what we're really good at in each of our parts and [UNKNOWN]: And collectively, man, we can get of it, because these are our problems, man. [UNKNOWN]: These aren't the psychs that aren't at the priest. [UNKNOWN]: These are our problems, man. [UNKNOWN]: And we're getting ahead of it with the solution now. [UNKNOWN]: So, and I, so just thank you for having me on here and giving me the ability to over-talk thanks. [UNKNOWN]: I appreciate all the color and detail that you've provided. [UNKNOWN]: It's been an amazing journey. [UNKNOWN]: And like I said, just an honor to listen to your story. [UNKNOWN]: So, I appreciate it. [UNKNOWN]: Thanks Michael. [UNKNOWN]: To the listener's last year, I hope you enjoyed it, if you didn't, you can joke yourself and until next time, this is my job.