Navy SEAL JTAC Reveals the Mistake That Exposed ISIS's Hidden Tunnel Network | EP 316

0:00 [UNKNOWN]: So the second phase of training is combat swimmer. [UNKNOWN]: Your learning open circuit and close circuit diving, your learning got to navigate underwater and dark and bright environment. [UNKNOWN]: You don't have GPS under the water. [UNKNOWN]: We know you're tough. [UNKNOWN]: We know you can handle a bad time. [UNKNOWN]: Now can you handle a bad time and follow instructions precisely. [UNKNOWN]: Ultimately what that leads to is a test called OCA. [UNKNOWN]: Got guys getting bloody noses, deep ripped out, dudes crapping themselves, throwing up underwater, black, and how it's a tough test. [UNKNOWN]: I'm not going to be the guy to lower the standards. [UNKNOWN]: I have a job to do, and it's a hold the line and keep everybody to the same standard.

0:43 [UNKNOWN]: In the years that you were there as an instructor, could you ballpark how many times students drowned and you had to pull them up and kind of recess to you? [UNKNOWN]: All the time. [UNKNOWN]: All the time. [UNKNOWN]: Ladies and gentlemen, as always, it's both an honor and a pleasure to welcome my next guest to the podcast. [UNKNOWN]: He's a former Navy SEAL, Buds Class 293, SEAL Team 5, J-TAC, Buds Second Phase Instructor, which, informally known as a professional drowner or... [UNKNOWN]: A self-taught oil painter, which I can't wait to get into, I've seen your work and its spectacular, the fact that your self-taught is even more impressive.

1:25 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. [UNKNOWN]: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage Justin Hughes. [UNKNOWN]: Mike, it's a joy to be here, man. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's really. [UNKNOWN]: It's an honor, thanks for having me out. [UNKNOWN]: It's an honor to have you, like I said, I've been cruising your gallery in Portfolio if you call it that, and yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Man, some of the work, like, I had to really zoom in and double take that it wasn't a photograph. [UNKNOWN]: Sure, you know, it's the realism aspect is super impressive. [UNKNOWN]: But I love that some of your works are also not that, and I don't, I'm the first one to admit I'm way too uneducated on the proper terminology, but some of it looks more, if you want to call it old school, I don't know, 18th or 19th century, like European style, you know, whatever, I don't know.

2:09 [UNKNOWN]: I'm probably, I'm sure you would say, no, no, there's like all sorts of different influences. [UNKNOWN]: It kind of depends on you, I'm into it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but I'm studying. [UNKNOWN]: But, [UNKNOWN]: I love that there's a variance I guess, thank you, but they're all, I was just blown away by your town that'd be on what's what's comprehensible, what's the, what's the last book that you've read? [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, I got to, man, can I give you two? [UNKNOWN]: Mm-hmm. [UNKNOWN]: Okay, so I finished a book called Adorning the Dark, Adorning the Darkness by Andrew Petersen on my way over here. [UNKNOWN]: And that's kind of like it's it's really helpful for creators. [UNKNOWN]: I think I think you might enjoy it, especially if you have like a biblical world view The world is just like super depressing right now.

2:52 [UNKNOWN]: It seems like in all the news and all the stuff that you you see But the author does such a great great job Kind of providing a watering hole for creatives to like encourage them to Continue to create what's and tell the in their stories [UNKNOWN]: what's good and true and beautiful and so man it's an awesome book highly recommend but that's more kind of like professionally. [UNKNOWN]: I just read Moby Dick for the first time in my life. [UNKNOWN]: Have you ever read it? [UNKNOWN]: I've never read it. [UNKNOWN]: Dude okay so when I first saw it it was like immediately now you know you see it it's just freaking overwhelming and massive. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah [UNKNOWN]: But I don't know, man, I got really into old Navy sea stories and the American willing industry and I started kind of reading stories about that and I was like, man, I'm old enough in mature enough that I can grind out this story and dude, it is an awesome classic story.

3:47 [UNKNOWN]: It's a classic for a reason. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, in a lot of people argue it's one of the greatest works in the English language. [UNKNOWN]: So, you know, if you got a second, [UNKNOWN]: Pick up a piece. [UNKNOWN]: If you'll want to, yeah, you'll want to highlight her, because there's some banger lines. [UNKNOWN]: You know, that guy can freaking, right? [UNKNOWN]: Man. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I was blown away. [UNKNOWN]: I was shocked. [UNKNOWN]: How much I liked it? [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's just neat that you brought up the kind of old school sailor wailing stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Have you ever been to the Wailing Museum on Ann'tucket? [UNKNOWN]: No, it's on my list. [UNKNOWN]: I'm planning a trip next year. [UNKNOWN]: I want to go up there once I'm like, see all the things. [UNKNOWN]: It's amazing. [UNKNOWN]: I've been there twice, I think. [UNKNOWN]: Okay. [UNKNOWN]: and talk it itself is a really cool spot. [UNKNOWN]: It was different. [UNKNOWN]: Some of it was kind of what I expected.

4:29 [UNKNOWN]: A lot of it was not both in good ways, I guess. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, that wailing museum. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I almost felt ignorant. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, how did I not know that that's how things were then? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like the economy was run on whales for so long yeah, and it's wild driving down the streets with my kids I'm like look at all these lights. [UNKNOWN]: You know what power those before we had electricity whales. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know Well, and it's a yeah, I mean not only is it mind blowing. [UNKNOWN]: It's also heartbreaking You know for sure. [UNKNOWN]: I mean look because they've got some videos and some like Graphic depictions on how they accomplished it and it's just like [UNKNOWN]: Man, just brutal to think that that's how things were, you know, and how prominent that was.

5:15 [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's just, yeah, I'm glad things are different. [UNKNOWN]: Totally. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, absolutely. [UNKNOWN]: I'd much rather prefer fossil fuels with the way I was for sure, a big baby dig. [UNKNOWN]: I'm the same thought I watched. [UNKNOWN]: You know, noville has an opinion, obviously, on the thing, he spends some time whaling, but, you know, the intelligence level of some of these creatures that we've kind of come to understand in their language and their, you know, their community and now they, they interact with each other across the globe is just, [UNKNOWN]: We've learned a lot about whaling, and I'm very grateful that the industry has changed. [UNKNOWN]: Same here. [UNKNOWN]: But, yeah, brutal. [UNKNOWN]: It's super interesting, period of time for America. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and I think it's important to me as tough as it is to see and stomach some of that stuff.

5:59 [UNKNOWN]: I think it's crucial to not repeat those mistakes, you know, and learn from, learn from it, I guess, you know. [UNKNOWN]: But, Matt, that's a cool, cool parallel. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Do you have a favorite quote? [UNKNOWN]: Yes. [UNKNOWN]: and I don't know if I do, it's always, yeah, I don't know, I mean, I don't know, I think to quote some Bible verse or something, but, yeah, I can't say, I couldn't think of anything, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [UNKNOWN]: I probably would honestly ask everybody that and some people have that like one Yep, and it's this and most people are like, no, not really Maybe I should stop asking.

6:41 [UNKNOWN]: No, no, I think yeah, I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: I'm do or do not. [UNKNOWN]: There's no try. [UNKNOWN]: Let's just go a little bit back Or should you favorite things to do growing up? [UNKNOWN]: Well, I drew a lot as a kid, so I've always kind of been into the arts, I guess, but my father's a big outdoorsman, Hunter, and Fisher, and we loved going hiking and exploring the mountains. [UNKNOWN]: So I have very fond memories of going out into the mountain ranges in hiking with my family out in the middle of nowhere. [UNKNOWN]: So I like being lost in the mountains. [UNKNOWN]: I'm curious, what age did your parents know that you had an unusually high level of talent drawing wise?

7:24 [UNKNOWN]: Man, or you, I guess. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no. [UNKNOWN]: It was always something like, wow, this kid can really draw. [UNKNOWN]: You can, wow, that's really great, buddy. [UNKNOWN]: You're really good at drawing. [UNKNOWN]: But really, you know, I grew up in a foreign country, not a lot of Westerners, the interaction that I had with other Western people was pretty limited and my parents weren't really engaged with that. [UNKNOWN]: So I don't know if it was ever something that they were like, you should do this, do something with it or anything other than just being a hobby and them encouraging me to just keep showing. [UNKNOWN]: That's really great. [UNKNOWN]: I love that picture. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, I recently saw, [UNKNOWN]: it was 18 or 20 year old kid that at this point is a world-class artist, but it showed it was either every year, every two years, like a drawing from his child, okay that's great.

8:15 [UNKNOWN]: It was really cool, even at two, it was like yeah, I can tell what that is at least, and then at four, it's like no way before you [UNKNOWN]: old, you know, but every two years it was really fascinating to see how much better this artist got, you know, every couple of years is a really really neat kind of collage or whatever, but so, you know, childhood is quite different than most. [UNKNOWN]: Can you kind of walk us through the [UNKNOWN]: the timeline of where and when you lived and just kind of the highlights from it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, Mike. [UNKNOWN]: I was born G. I, man. [UNKNOWN]: General, as she was born Fort Rucker, Alabama. [UNKNOWN]: And my dad was a Huey pilot. [UNKNOWN]: And so we were, you know, in El Paso and Fort Rucker, and all over the states, my dad ended up having a hard landing and he got retired out for a time.

9:06 [UNKNOWN]: And as a as a [UNKNOWN]: like late teens, early adulthood, but he always felt called to like the mission field like he knew he wanted to do some kind of missions or pastoring or something like that. [UNKNOWN]: But him and my mom felt called to serve overseas on the International Mission Board as Christian missionaries and [UNKNOWN]: And so at age eight, my brother was 10, and my little sister was six. [UNKNOWN]: I think I was like seven, turning eight. [UNKNOWN]: We backed up and moved to Southeast Asia, and that's kind of where I spent my entire life, you know, up until 18, coming back for college. [UNKNOWN]: We'd make trips back to the States. [UNKNOWN]: I came back for, like, my freshman year to, they call it, like, furlough, spend a little bit of time in the States, and meet up with family and kind of re-engage.

9:55 [UNKNOWN]: little trips here and there, but for the most part it was all overseas, and kind of scattered all over Southeast Asia Yeah, I'm in China, Thailand, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, and what range of years was this? [UNKNOWN]: Like actually years like 98, uh, man 98, uh, 07 or yeah [UNKNOWN]: So I'm curious. [UNKNOWN]: 97, maybe six, I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: Something like that, sorry. [UNKNOWN]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [UNKNOWN]: From that window of time being such an instrumental transitional and dynamic period in American history, international conflict wise, was that something that you know, being an American, but being in Southeast Asia doing missionary work, I mean obviously I got aware of it, but how much attention was paid to kind of what was going on.

11:04 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for us, our family is kind of central theme why we were Americans, and there was like great pride in being American citizens. [UNKNOWN]: The difference for anybody that's traveled anywhere in the world, you know, and spent any amount of time in the states coming back to the states after traveling. [UNKNOWN]: This is the best country in the world, like it's very easy to recognize. [UNKNOWN]: And even now, I understand that the U.S. isn't as altruistic as a lot of people think. [UNKNOWN]: And as probably as we thought in our youth, there's definitely some things that need fixing. [UNKNOWN]: But ultimately, as a young kid, I recognized that there's something special about this country, because as a kid, I couldn't say certain words in some of these countries.

11:55 [UNKNOWN]: at age eight and nine I was having nightmares at night because I was afraid the police would come in and take my parents from me You know, so at a very young age there was a level of ownership not just of my faith, but also man [UNKNOWN]: When I get to go home to the States, I get a wrap off my shoulders, I get to rest. [UNKNOWN]: And so there was a very easy to be grateful for a country like this when you spend any time, extend a time in a place like that, especially when your mission is to go overseas and produce a gospel. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I had the exact opposite up bringing, you know, I'd never, never left the country until Oh, it's just a team.

12:35 [UNKNOWN]: So totally kind of transverse, you know, opposite, but being, being that your dad was a veteran and relatively freshly out of the military, was that something that he, [UNKNOWN]: Communicated to you guys at all in terms of what was going on in Iraq and Afghanistan and like did you talk about it for paying much So yeah, he served in desert shield desert storm and in Panama as a pilot and You as we were young so he kept his stories You know brief, but there was a there was a level of a patriotism and pride and I mean that in a good way in his service, right? [UNKNOWN]: And in a week, grew up admiring that our father did that thing and that he worked to, you know, represent his country in an honorable fashion.

13:27 [UNKNOWN]: And so at a young age, too, there was that like, man, there's this admiration for service members and what they do. [UNKNOWN]: I remember my dad saying, you know, seeing a guy with a World War II at and saying, hey, anytime you see one of those guys. [UNKNOWN]: you go up and shake their hand because they're not going to be around a long time or a Vietnam veteran. [UNKNOWN]: Hey, when you go up to those guys, you say, welcome home, and just like that was something that was implemented into my youth, from a young age. [UNKNOWN]: And so there was always something in our memory. [UNKNOWN]: And whatever you think about the international conflicts and what we're getting involved, it was never political or what was going on in the world. [UNKNOWN]: But [UNKNOWN]: It was more on the individual level that these men recognize that there's certain things we're fighting for.

14:11 [UNKNOWN]: They recognize that there is goodness in the world and also having a biblical world view that, hey, our government, the role of our government and our military is to punish evil and uphold what's good. [UNKNOWN]: And so I grew up with that understanding that that's part of what military service is about. [UNKNOWN]: It's about upholding what's good and destroying what's evil and so. [UNKNOWN]: There was always kind of that perspective, but it was more on the individual, you know, service member and not such a broad political kind of understanding of what was going on in the world. [UNKNOWN]: Does that make sense? [UNKNOWN]: For sure. [UNKNOWN]: For sure. [UNKNOWN]: No, I'm sure it does and probably the right call, you know? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: It's probably better to look at it or focus on it that way.

14:55 [UNKNOWN]: from a schoolings standpoint where you homeschooled or did you go to like public schools in the area that you were in? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so when we first moved over there there was no public school or international school or anything like that. [UNKNOWN]: So we were homeschooled for a good portion of it. [UNKNOWN]: My mom carried that burden. [UNKNOWN]: And we also went to some of the national schools, so their education, but a huge language barrier nobody speaks English. [UNKNOWN]: And it doesn't last very long. [UNKNOWN]: Eventually, you know, your kid, when he's around 8-8-year-old, and you're like, I'm just really not getting anything out of this. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm learning the language better, going through the market and pointing and asking what things are, then I am, you know, just writing these characters down hundreds and hundreds of times.

15:45 [UNKNOWN]: Eventually, when we got older, we ended up going to different boarding schools and stuff, and that's much more of an international community. [UNKNOWN]: Because there's business is all over, you know, traveling, parents that are doing business in and out of different countries, so there's a big international community of Western people living overseas that kind of send their kids to these international schools. [UNKNOWN]: So I spent some time there too. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, um, did you play any sports at all growing up? [UNKNOWN]: David, that's, um, I played soccer, that's like the only thing, you know, that's very consistent and kind of all the, the, um, Asian countries, a lot of soccer players. [UNKNOWN]: So I played high school soccer for a couple of years, but then I kind of like, [UNKNOWN]: I kind of nerded out and went into the theater stuff.

16:31 [UNKNOWN]: I kind of struck my interest. [UNKNOWN]: I started reading Shakespeare in the dramas, and I found it just a lot of fun memorizing and quoting, and there's something about storytelling that captures people, and people love story. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's why you're doing this. [UNKNOWN]: People want to be engaged and enthralled with interesting things, and something about theater was really cool to me that I could... [UNKNOWN]: You know, live this character and people just really enjoyed it. [UNKNOWN]: So I ended up doing theater for a little while. [UNKNOWN]: I know that's like not normal for a team guys, but there's a couple of us that like really, you know, you know, got into it, but [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for sure, your atypical path coming into the seal teams, but you know, it's neat.

17:14 [UNKNOWN]: And one of the things I kind of recognized right away was was just that is that the all walks of life thing. [UNKNOWN]: Obviously military while, but even in the seal teams, it was like the variance in backgrounds was astounding. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I love, I mean, don't even want my light sports. [UNKNOWN]: But I grew up hiking all over. [UNKNOWN]: There wasn't a lot of team sports, other soccer. [UNKNOWN]: And so it was just never something that I got really had a lot of time to get good at. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it just didn't stick for me. [UNKNOWN]: Was there a favorite place overseas that you lived growing up? [UNKNOWN]: There's certain pockets that I have like special memories of like I can in the Himalayas that are really profound to me and that I have stuck with me for, you know, my entire life.

18:00 [UNKNOWN]: But as for if there was like a certain country I went to high school in Thailand and at an international school called Grace. [UNKNOWN]: And it's a small ancient city called Chiang Mai. [UNKNOWN]: And it's a really cool town. [UNKNOWN]: Thailand's really cool, interesting culture. [UNKNOWN]: Great celebrations and kind of people. [UNKNOWN]: And you know, you got the jungles and elephants and snakes is just probably my favorite place to live when I was over there. [UNKNOWN]: And also it was high school. [UNKNOWN]: So I had a lot more freedom. [UNKNOWN]: I could do go places on all by myself. [UNKNOWN]: That was great. [UNKNOWN]: Have you spent any time there? [UNKNOWN]: I have a few times yeah okay what's it was in the military so pretty specific yeah yeah I know those places do but we don't have to tell those stories well actually we pulled in the food cap yeah okay a three or four day Liberty call and and myself and two or three other guys actually took like a six hour cab ride [UNKNOWN]: to uh... p.p.

19:00 [UNKNOWN]: island oh yeah did p.p.p's cool spot yeah uh... so you know all the all the boys hung out in fru-cat and parry the whole time we went rock climbing and too and it's so beautiful amazing yeah that's true yeah it was an incredible so one glad you got there because puketta is kind of like a it's a it can be a dumpster fire for sure it's not a spot [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and there's a treasure trove of ridiculous stories that came out of the rest of the book. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we'll save for another day. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's right. [UNKNOWN]: Were there ever any close calls security wise in any of the places that you lived? [UNKNOWN]: Because you mentioned being worried about the police showing up, were there ever any super dicey moments that almost happened?

19:40 [UNKNOWN]: Totally. [UNKNOWN]: One of the things that our family was a part of doing is we kind of bring in teams from the states and other countries. [UNKNOWN]: It could be special teams like dental clinics or medical clinics to take care of small things like stitches or removing growth and stuff like that or pulling teeth. [UNKNOWN]: So we go out before these teams come in. [UNKNOWN]: We map out villages and locations that are very hard to reach. [UNKNOWN]: And then we find these teams, we do medical stuff. [UNKNOWN]: And in that time, a lot of people are like, why are you, what are you doing here? [UNKNOWN]: Our own country doesn't care about us.

20:20 [UNKNOWN]: Like, who are you guys to come out here and help in this way? [UNKNOWN]: And all for free. [UNKNOWN]: And so for us, it's an opportunity to tell them about who Christ is, and what he's done. [UNKNOWN]: And now this is just an... [UNKNOWN]: We've been given so much so we want to give to other people. [UNKNOWN]: And so, you know, to follow up with that, what we do oftentimes is create these like packages, drop off packages with like pamphlets of that explanation of the gospel and how to get in touch with us if they want more information. [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, just information like if they want to know more about what we're doing. [UNKNOWN]: And so we'd come up with these packages and this is something that us kids [UNKNOWN]: But you'd have hundreds of these things as we were putting them in little ziplocks and stuff and I remember one night there was a bang on the door and my dad goes up and kind of little shutter opens and there's the police like three cops, you know, just doing a wellness check and my dad's like, oh, just a minute close the thing I'd have everything.

21:25 [UNKNOWN]: You know, and we're just stuff and stuff underneath couches and chairs and throwing bags over her shoulder running them to the to our bedrooms and and hide and stuff and they come in, you know, just kind of look around and what were you hiding it was the gospel material because it's illegal it's all illegal. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you're not allowed to be mission it's I was in China. [UNKNOWN]: I've kind of kept it so I guess it doesn't really matter, but [UNKNOWN]: There was like a big data breach in with the organization that we were in and everybody had to evacuate. [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, it's pretty crazy, man. [UNKNOWN]: Before I did Sean show, I Google searched, I was like, man, missionaries in China, like, how much can I talk about this?

22:08 [UNKNOWN]: There's nothing, you know, they're extremely secretive. [UNKNOWN]: It was just something I've kind of like avoided talking about you know the actual location It doesn't really matter. [UNKNOWN]: It's been so long ago. [UNKNOWN]: I'm not allowed to go back anymore So whatever I'm just worried about the CCP just showing up at my door Something that you know getting an umbrella. [UNKNOWN]: I'm Brelle injected into my calf and just fallen over one day So you're not allowed to go back because of that. [UNKNOWN]: That's right. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, there's a big data breach and yeah Everybody's identities were Yeah, that's kind of reminds from it. [UNKNOWN]: So [UNKNOWN]: Is there a nastiest or craziest thing you ever eat living inside of these places? [UNKNOWN]: There's all sorts of weird stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Big brains and big brains.

22:49 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, big brains is probably one of the grossest weirdest things. [UNKNOWN]: Just like straight up on the griddle, flipped, you know, this is some stuff. [UNKNOWN]: What is that like? [UNKNOWN]: Dude, but I know you're a dog guy. [UNKNOWN]: I remember going down the road and seeing German shepherds getting skinned, hung up upside down, you know, that stuff's. [UNKNOWN]: There's some about dogs, you know, that I tell my kids and people and dogs are one of those animals that I think God gave us to remind us what the relationship could have been like, you know, in the garden with these creatures. [UNKNOWN]: They're just loyal, their companions are helpful. [UNKNOWN]: They're, you know, it's just a really cool relationship.

23:33 [UNKNOWN]: And so no matter what, you know, and I had dogs growing up as a kid, so I think that was one of the things, and I have eaten dog and cat, but That's one of those things that's just kind of like not not great. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, I would have a hard time of that for sure Yeah, you're a kid. [UNKNOWN]: You don't really know about it. [UNKNOWN]: You just think it's kind of taboo and you're like [UNKNOWN]: That's crazy, and somebody offers you it, and you're like, well, when in room, I guess, I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, man. [UNKNOWN]: You said you spent your freshman year back in the States, were you home school there, did you go to a public school? [UNKNOWN]: No, I went to a public school. [UNKNOWN]: How about the whole culture shop? [UNKNOWN]: I had a moment for me, man. [UNKNOWN]: Big culture. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm an Alabama.

24:14 [UNKNOWN]: This is like a small country school, the, you know, [UNKNOWN]: The ratio was like 80% African American 20% Caucasian and other and I had no experience with that culture at all. [UNKNOWN]: But I guess you were used to being in minority and everywhere. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. [UNKNOWN]: That's very true. [UNKNOWN]: But it was just it was kind of a bummer because There was like a little bit of jadedness because I had this idea of this country in my head that I had kind of built up and found Love and had pride in and then the first year that I kind of come back to the States [UNKNOWN]: You know, you're picked on and bullied and, you know, you're just, I was a small kid.

25:01 [UNKNOWN]: I weighed like, you know, a buck 35 till I graduated in high school and it was just not a great experience for me. [UNKNOWN]: So there's like a little bit of jadedness when I can't wait to go back to Thailand now or I can't. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I'm excited about getting back overseas. [UNKNOWN]: You're a kid without a country, your entire life and you come back to the place that you thought was your place. [UNKNOWN]: it was it was tough but I got over it yeah I am curious in that environment growing up home schooled international schools etc. [UNKNOWN]: was the level of your education at that point way advanced for being a freshman in high school there was areas that I I think I was like better but I was I don't know about you that [UNKNOWN]: I wasn't a great student.

25:48 [UNKNOWN]: I was married. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I wasn't a great student. [UNKNOWN]: So I was pretty rebellious anyway. [UNKNOWN]: And I saw through the system. [UNKNOWN]: And I think that's why we homeschool our kids now. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, I should not be here eight hours a day. [UNKNOWN]: You know, this can happen a lot faster. [UNKNOWN]: I've done the homeschool thing before. [UNKNOWN]: We're being bamboozled, you know, and so I was not a very good student, didn't really enjoy reading or math or anything like that not too much later, but yeah, I wouldn't say I was advanced, but I think as far as an understanding of the world and what life is really like and about, I was led to the game there for sure, yeah, man.

26:30 [UNKNOWN]: Can you tell us about the catalyst for wanting to join the military and specifically become a seal? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Was there a light switch moment for you growing up or was it kind of this is what I've always wanted to do? [UNKNOWN]: What happened there? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so I drew a lot as a kid and it was always something that interested me. [UNKNOWN]: I watched animated films, Disney stuff, as a child, but art was never something that I saw. [UNKNOWN]: It's like a potential for me and I was in 6 or 7th grade when 9-11 happened and [UNKNOWN]: My uncle called us on the phone. [UNKNOWN]: He was actually visiting at the time.

27:11 [UNKNOWN]: He was saying, I don't tell him he's like, hey, tell your friends to turn on the news. [UNKNOWN]: And something's happening in New York. [UNKNOWN]: So I turn on the news and right as I turn it on, my brother kind of walks in the room and we're like, oh man, and right then we see the second building at the World Trade Center live. [UNKNOWN]: And my brother, he's a smart guy. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, there's a terrorist attack. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm like, what the heck is a terrorist attack? [UNKNOWN]: You know, and some of my parents come in the room and it's just this big moment and then We're watching the news all night long. [UNKNOWN]: I have school the next day The night proceeds and we're getting calls from the school now saying hey, there's terrorist threats on the school school's canceled for the week Because where I was at in Malaysia huge Muslim population And so I guess people were looking for where the Westerners were and say and a we're coming for you next You know [UNKNOWN]: And so for me, I was like, dude, this is not a okay place to be at as far as what does it mean to be an American?

28:24 [UNKNOWN]: They want us at home, they want us over here, but the comfort for me was the following week, the military. [UNKNOWN]: piece they're looking at okay if something serious does go down globally how are we going to deal with all the Americans because there's a big international community at the school like are we going to do a maritime forces right on the beach so are we going to do a maritime force to pull people out or what does that look like and I remember being a kid at the school in this Canadian friend of mine's like hey just and there's a that guy over there is in the military [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, oh, that's sick.

29:05 [UNKNOWN]: Like, I wonder what he's doing. [UNKNOWN]: You're so I go over to him. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, I say, Mr. You know, are you in the military? [UNKNOWN]: And I think he's a Marine. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And I said, what are you doing here? [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, you an American? [UNKNOWN]: I say, yes, sir. [UNKNOWN]: He said, well, I'm here for you, kid, and I remember thinking, like, dude, there's New Zealand, England, people from all over the world, but the Americans are here, you know, taking care of their people. [UNKNOWN]: And as a kid, who grew up over overseas as an entire life, and you kind of feel like a kid without a country to have somebody come all the way over there and say that you matter.

29:46 [UNKNOWN]: Dude, that makes you want to beat your chest and you know where that American flag on here on your on your chest as you go into school and not care what about the threats But there was something deeply rooted that day that said one day. [UNKNOWN]: I would like to be that kind of guy for for another kid Yeah, man, so in in my head there was always planted like I'm I want to serve at some point I didn't know what I would capacity though [UNKNOWN]: Sleep is a non-negotiable for me. [UNKNOWN]: I train hard, I push my body, and if my recovery is off, everything downstream suffers. [UNKNOWN]: The mattress you're sleeping on matters more than most people realize. [UNKNOWN]: I've had my helix for a while now, and the difference was noticeable pretty quickly. [UNKNOWN]: Better sleep, quality, waking up without that stiffness.

30:28 [UNKNOWN]: When your sleep tracker starts showing better numbers and you feel it in the morning, that's real. [UNKNOWN]: What I like about Helix is they don't just sell you a mattress and call it a day. [UNKNOWN]: You take a two-minute sleep quiz and they custom build the mattress for your specific needs. [UNKNOWN]: Over 20 models, free shipping right to your door, and a 365-night sleep trial. [UNKNOWN]: Most awarded mattress brand out there tested by Forbes and Lyred. [UNKNOWN]: If you've been putting off the upgrade, this is the time. [UNKNOWN]: Go to helixleep.com slash mic drop for up to 30% off site wide. [UNKNOWN]: That's helixleep.com slash mic drop for up to 30% off. [UNKNOWN]: I can't imagine that that guy has any concept of the impact that he had.

31:12 [UNKNOWN]: Isn't that crazy? [UNKNOWN]: But it would be awesome to know where he's at. [UNKNOWN]: I know, man, I thought about that. [UNKNOWN]: I have a buddy who was serving. [UNKNOWN]: He was an aircraft carrier in the area at the time and We've docked and he's like, man, I wonder where that guy wonder if he was on my ship You know, and like or I've thought about it all the time. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, where's that marine? [UNKNOWN]: Oh, you're awesome. [UNKNOWN]: It'd be cool. [UNKNOWN]: Uh, so at what point did you decide you have some going to join the military and I want to be a team guy? [UNKNOWN]: Dude, so I got back to the States for college and my dad was a huge pilot, he flew. [UNKNOWN]: And so as a kid, you talk about joining in the advice that dad's always give is...

31:53 [UNKNOWN]: If you're going to go in, be an officer, you know, you need to go to school first. [UNKNOWN]: It's like the boomer advice to the guys joining the military. [UNKNOWN]: And so I was trying to honor my parents and go to college. [UNKNOWN]: So I was in school and I said, hey, there's this ROTC. [UNKNOWN]: You can be in the military and college. [UNKNOWN]: This is cool. [UNKNOWN]: And so I signed up for the classes, started doing it. [UNKNOWN]: And I remember going into the class. [UNKNOWN]: You know, one of the first days and everybody's in there and the instructor cadre come in and they're like, hey, introduce yourself. [UNKNOWN]: Tell us why you want to be in the military and one kid stands up and they're like, I'm here because they'll military said that they'd pay for my school and then another one says, [UNKNOWN]: You know, the job experience is really great and I think that it's going to provide me a lot of opportunity afterwards.

32:41 [UNKNOWN]: And you know, reason after reason went through and I'm kind of looking around and thinking where are the people that want to do bad things to bad people and help good people, you know. [UNKNOWN]: I said, I need to find a community that that's really hard to get into because wherever that community is, those guys really want the job and they want to do the thing, you know. [UNKNOWN]: So I started researching these different special programs, special army special forces, of course, dads and the army, I've evolved this overseas experience and it sounded a lot like what I was [UNKNOWN]: And I started talking to a recruiter on the phone, and he kind of blew me off.

33:26 [UNKNOWN]: And so I was really interested in the special forces route, but I was driving with a friend on the road, and he said, I was telling him kind of what I was dealing with with this recruiter. [UNKNOWN]: He says, man, if you're looking for that kind of community, you need to look at the seal teams. [UNKNOWN]: I said, I think I'd heard it like the seal teams like one time, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, you should read this book that I just finished, just called Loan Survivor. [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, like every kid, I'm just burning through that book, and I'm reading about deeds and acts and, you know, the type of men that those guys were, and thinking, these are the kind of people that I want to emulate.

34:08 [UNKNOWN]: You know, this kind of, this kind of, [UNKNOWN]: Determination and grit and dedication is out of the types of people that I want to surround myself with. [UNKNOWN]: So then there was that that in the back of my mind too. [UNKNOWN]: Like man, I would love to do that. [UNKNOWN]: I was a I wasn't a water guide though You know I grew up up swimming like I was never bad swimmer, but I was I remember the first time I did some lap swimming man You know I did 25 meters and I got out the at the other end and I was like [UNKNOWN]: You know, I don't did you swim growing up? [UNKNOWN]: I did. [UNKNOWN]: I so competitively grew up. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, no way. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, from the time I was five and till All the way through high school like went to stay in the whole thing. [UNKNOWN]: So I mean The irony of that is though is I got rolled for swims.

34:48 [UNKNOWN]: So did you really I did okay? [UNKNOWN]: Because I I was injured I pinched my sciatic nerve at teeth during land then. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, so I failed everything. [UNKNOWN]: Yes Wims was just the first thing that I failed three of but [UNKNOWN]: It's just kind of funny. [UNKNOWN]: It's like that's right. [UNKNOWN]: You guys did the land nav early. [UNKNOWN]: When did you guys start land nav and in third phase? [UNKNOWN]: Sorry did. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, it's no no. [UNKNOWN]: So you did in third phase, too. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, okay. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, my up at the post. [UNKNOWN]: Okay. [UNKNOWN]: So it was later in in Buds that you got. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I was so I started with 2014 and went all the way to, you know, just a few days before the island and that's when I got rolled because the land nav was like the third week or both week or whatever and then the island [UNKNOWN]: Pinch my son, Nick, nerve could barely walk, and then so I failed every run, every old verse, every swim, and like I said, Swem's was just the first thing that I failed to do.

35:38 [UNKNOWN]: I wanted to try to not get mad rolled, I looked back on, I probably should have, you know, but whatever. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: For me, it was like, just me, I got rolled first, stress factors, and I left to be in. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, just make it to second phase. [UNKNOWN]: No, I just got to make it to second phase, like get to the next phase. [UNKNOWN]: but no matter what man, brown sugar rollback land is not the place to be. [UNKNOWN]: I know that's a big part of where I spent my time as an instructor, actually, but I was gone before before you got there, but, yeah, all right. [UNKNOWN]: So, did that answer your question? [UNKNOWN]: Sorry, I had a idea. [UNKNOWN]: No, yeah, I might not be railed that one, that's not bad. [UNKNOWN]: So, you're not a great swimmer, but yeah, you're like, oh, the seal teams is pretty cool.

36:20 [UNKNOWN]: How did you bridge that guy? [UNKNOWN]: Man, I, well, one, I was like, I'm gonna just start training. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, it's gonna be good for me no matter what. [UNKNOWN]: I'm gonna train for all the things. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I was in college, and so, yeah, there's this one girl, like I was driving in a car when I first started kind of thinking about these, these other programs, I remember driving in a car with a bunch of friends that were in our T.C. [UNKNOWN]: And they were all talking about what they wanted to do in the military like different jobs. [UNKNOWN]: And she looked over at me and she's like, what do you wanna do? [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, I think I wanna be in special forces. [UNKNOWN]: And she kind of gave me like the, you, yeah, you know, that's really hard, right? [UNKNOWN]: She said that. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, I am going to be special. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I am going to do it now.

37:02 [UNKNOWN]: Just out of, you know, total, [UNKNOWN]: ego and you know whatever but anyway so I just was like I'm gonna take this here I know it's hard, but I'm gonna I can I can do that you know I'm gonna put in the work I really want this if I'm going to serve I'm gonna be a part of this so man I I had just started draining really hard I dropped out of any and most things I think it was like my junior year and I was kind of like I think I'm gonna drop out my senior year and and it goes talk to recruiter and and contract and make it happen but [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's hilarious because I don't think there's anything at that age that can ignite motivation more than a woman that you're hanging out with or maybe even attracted to Probably attracted to telling you that you're an advocate [UNKNOWN]: Totally met in what's crazy.

37:50 [UNKNOWN]: It's like not even no interest. [UNKNOWN]: I had a girlfriend. [UNKNOWN]: I like I met my wife in high school So we went in international school in Thailand together high school sweet arts and ended up getting married You know when I was like right before I graduated SKT and But it was just something like oh people like don't think I can do this and to me it kind of just put a fire in my gut [UNKNOWN]: to put in the work, you know, it's like clear, you know, there's a clear deficit and in professional sports, I was talking to a guy that does rodeo the other day. [UNKNOWN]: As soon as somebody gets on the bowl, he's like, you can tell who's gonna do well and who's not. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, the perception of me is that I can't do this.

38:33 [UNKNOWN]: And I get that the initial perception, but that that's in my control too. [UNKNOWN]: So yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And I just committed to him, man. [UNKNOWN]: That's awesome. [UNKNOWN]: All right, so you start working out really hard. [UNKNOWN]: How long did you, or how long did it take from when you really said, OK, I'm going to do this. [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to become that until you actually stepped foot into boot camp. [UNKNOWN]: Well, the depin process, like the process for all the paperwork and training and the way that it set up, you take your PSD and then you train with a group for a while till a date game. [UNKNOWN]: I think we train for like, [UNKNOWN]: over a year and preparation for it. [UNKNOWN]: So it was a long time.

39:13 [UNKNOWN]: I dropped out. [UNKNOWN]: I ended up dropping out of school and I was going to kind of start talking to a recruiter right away. [UNKNOWN]: My brother was a white water f-guide in Charlotte, North Carolina and that's what I kind of did on in the summers at school. [UNKNOWN]: I was a white water f-guide and he was like, hey man, come down. [UNKNOWN]: I'll get you a job at the [UNKNOWN]: And we can train together because he wanted to join us well, but he was kind of more interested in the intel world So he wanted to look at the export of the officer route. [UNKNOWN]: He had graduated and And he's like don't just unless it's like like I'll train with you.

39:54 [UNKNOWN]: We'll work out and we'll go to talk to a recruiter together [UNKNOWN]: So okay, no problem. [UNKNOWN]: I need the money anyway, and so I moved down to Charlotte and started training, and that's when I kind of first talked to the recruiter, and then it was like a year before I ended up actually going off in the boot camp. [UNKNOWN]: But you know, I was like I said, I was talking to a special forces recruiter for a while. [UNKNOWN]: And he kept blowing me off, and so I said, okay, I'm going to go talk, I'm going to go to actual recruiter's office, and I'll talk to the Army, and then I'll talk to the Navy guys. [UNKNOWN]: My brother was going to go straight to the Navy, he wanted to talk to the Navy.

40:34 [UNKNOWN]: So I went in and Army officers on the right door was locked, lights were out, I did the quick peek through, and then I walked back out on the back couch, or my brother was talking [UNKNOWN]: and he was telling him about what he wanted to do and the community said he wanted to be a part of and the recruiters like, well, I'll tell you really like right now we're really looking for like UD and seal and my brother says, oh yeah, my brother wanted to talk to you guys about being a seal and the guy goes, you know, the mirrors my brother said out of the way, no, and um [UNKNOWN]: So we kind of just start this open dialogue about what we've been doing and my brother [UNKNOWN]: you know, if you want to do any kind of intel or agency stuff in the future, obviously seal is a great resume builder for a career in that profession.

41:34 [UNKNOWN]: And so my brother's like, dude, I want to look into this too. [UNKNOWN]: And maybe I'll try to go to Buds too. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, bro, you don't understand this, I've been doing a lot of research. [UNKNOWN]: This is really freaking hard. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know if this is something like, we just want to jump into. [UNKNOWN]: We need to, we need to train for a long time. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, dude, let's, let's do it. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm like, [UNKNOWN]: You'd let's do it, you know, like, together, and so we both ended up getting seal contracts and going to bud together. [UNKNOWN]: Really? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so we went through boot camp together and through buds. [UNKNOWN]: And, uh, nobody knew, I'm like, I'm taller, darker complexion. [UNKNOWN]: He's a little bit shorter than I am, very first skin and, uh, blonde hair.

42:17 [UNKNOWN]: So we don't look a lot alike. [UNKNOWN]: And I remember Bootcamp getting called in, like the second week and the RDCs being like, are you too related? [UNKNOWN]: And I'm like, who y'all, you know, and the RDCs kind of look at each other like, is this allowed to happen? [UNKNOWN]: You know, are you guys allowed to be here like this? [UNKNOWN]: And, dude, we just kind of went through boot camp together, graduated together, did the pre buds thing, and then shipped off to buds. [UNKNOWN]: And it was kind of more or less the same thing when the instructor staff found out that we were related. [UNKNOWN]: How long in the buds instructors find out? [UNKNOWN]: It was pretty quick into pre-budds.

42:58 [UNKNOWN]: Okay. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but it was crazy. [UNKNOWN]: There was like three or four of us. [UNKNOWN]: There was like Q's one, two, three and four, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And slowly, users kept getting chopped out of the pipeline, and then there was one, you know. [UNKNOWN]: But, um, so you'd rather than make up? [UNKNOWN]: He didn't make it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, he quit the Wednesday the first week. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, wow. [UNKNOWN]: So, I'll pre-bubble. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no, I'm sorry. [UNKNOWN]: So, they found out in pre-buds and immediately we were swim buddies and had to go everywhere together and, you know, that so they could make fun of us and watch us and, and taunt us. [UNKNOWN]: And, and so he quit the first week. [UNKNOWN]: It was, it was Tuesday night. [UNKNOWN]: You've got to run everywhere in Buds and some students got caught walking and throw and trash out from the Instructor's office and I think it was Instructor Fishburnt.

43:46 [UNKNOWN]: Did you know Fishburnt? [UNKNOWN]: Instructor Fishburnt comes cruising up on his little beach cruisers like everybody will write. [UNKNOWN]: I will not walk while at basic underwater demolition school 1,000 times tonight. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and so all night long, man, I have five bends taped together trying to write this out. [UNKNOWN]: And like, only a small portion of the class finishes. [UNKNOWN]: Dude, I think I got like five minutes of sleep before, you know, you're up for a four clock in the morning, mustering, doing the edgowns, getting everything ready for that next step or the first evolution of the day. [UNKNOWN]: And man, we were just so tired, had the two myelotions wham, and then structures like you're not going to make it You're not going to make it and we set a PR or smoked, and my brother just like dude, I think I'm done man This was just in means to end for me, and I'm like [UNKNOWN]: Wait to lunch, you know, let's talk at lunch.

44:38 [UNKNOWN]: What we'll figure it out and we run up to the beach and instructors says, if you didn't finish your essay, report for extra buds. [UNKNOWN]: And so he went over that way because he didn't finish his essay and I ran up to the pit to change out. [UNKNOWN]: And we talked briefly at lunch and you kind of get it, man. [UNKNOWN]: Everybody's like, look, make your decision. [UNKNOWN]: I can't convince you. [UNKNOWN]: You're going to quit if you want to quit. [UNKNOWN]: At that point, so many people had quit that you thought we're going to make it or that it done well and you just don't know. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, I'm going to stick around for one more evolution and just see what we're doing next. [UNKNOWN]: And new to is really hard for me.

45:18 [UNKNOWN]: That was like the big crux for me. [UNKNOWN]: Because up until that point, I had my brother, my entire life. [UNKNOWN]: We'd always been next to each other. [UNKNOWN]: We went to the same school college. [UNKNOWN]: The only place we had a little difference was in high school. [UNKNOWN]: We kind of, you went to a different boarding school for a little while. [UNKNOWN]: But we had been through this whole thing together, and it was always really nice just to have a guy that you could come back to and be like, bro, our recruiter lied to boot camp sucks. [UNKNOWN]: This is not what we expected. [UNKNOWN]: And he just kind of pulled away from that support system as pulled away, but I had like three guys that came up to me after he quit, and he's like, dude, we'll be your brother now. [UNKNOWN]: And all of them made it. [UNKNOWN]: And so it was just a really cool moment for me kind of coming into that community in a way.

46:03 [UNKNOWN]: You know, the more time that you spend at Buds and SKT and then in the teams, but especially at Buds, you find yourself kind of having more in common with those guys and the guys and the buildings that you want to go to, then the guys back at home, you know, and so it was just a really cool moment for me kind of like coming into that. [UNKNOWN]: How has your brother dealt with that? [UNKNOWN]: Is that something that is a regret for him or I don't think it's so much up obviously There's always what if He would've been cool to have that experience But he owns and he's not one of those kind of guys that was like [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, he's like dude.

46:43 [UNKNOWN]: It was cold. [UNKNOWN]: It was harder than you think and it was a mean stand-in for me and just not for me So I quit and I respect him for it, but he's been a great He's been a great example of how to quit gracefully. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I know in it, but I think if [UNKNOWN]: You asked him that, he would definitely say, like, yeah, of course. [UNKNOWN]: It would have been awesome to have the experience of the teams, and have some that training and a peek into that community. [UNKNOWN]: But at the end of the day, he knows it wasn't for him. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: That's how it goes. [UNKNOWN]: Did he stick around on the Navy for a while? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, he went to, to be an IT for a couple of years, moved up to Maryland for a bit, and got out. [UNKNOWN]: He actually ended up going to seminary and becoming an army chaplain, which is what my dad was doing.

47:27 [UNKNOWN]: So my dad ended up going back in during the surge. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, oh, seven time frame and doing Afghanistan and Iraq and then he ended up retiring my dad retired and then my brother went in and became an army chapel and he's still in he's somewhere in Texas station now. [UNKNOWN]: That's really cool. [UNKNOWN]: So I imagine, do you remember how old your dad was when he went back in to be a chaplain? [UNKNOWN]: I don't. [UNKNOWN]: I can't remember. [UNKNOWN]: I imagine that's a different thing in terms of age, right? [UNKNOWN]: Like you can do that. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: They were all your big needs for it. [UNKNOWN]: So they were waving all sorts of stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Because I think I mentioned he had a hard landing. [UNKNOWN]: Did I say that? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, he messed up his, he had messed up his back really bad. [UNKNOWN]: You know, man.

48:10 [UNKNOWN]: are landing, and so they had some back issues that he had to get waived, but yeah, it was an interesting experience, you know, combat from a chaplain's perspective and dealing with grief and suffering and kind of working through, like, you know, he's got a moral monster, or what is, how does a god let a man kind of exist in this realm? [UNKNOWN]: So it's important to have those team guys don't have that we didn't I don't did you ever experience a chaplain I don't I don't remember ever yet. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I don't I didn't get one Arpal tunes didn't get one till my second appointment. [UNKNOWN]: I never remember anyone even mentioning a chaplain in that crazy Yeah, you know that's just rockers [UNKNOWN]: the name sounds very so he was a ranger in Somalia okay and kind of the same thing you know fought in Somalia did did all that stuff and then became a chaplain and was a chaplain for rangers in Afghanistan okay here's later but ended up [UNKNOWN]: Go on out on some missions with them and stuff like total hard jars are really great, dude and it was an amazing interview, I'd encourage any of you to check out one of the very, definitely interesting.

49:19 [UNKNOWN]: Today's episode is sponsored by Jevity. [UNKNOWN]: Why are you so tired all the time? [UNKNOWN]: Why do you feel run down? [UNKNOWN]: Why doesn't your body feel like it used to? [UNKNOWN]: When feeling tired becomes your normal, you deserve a closer look. [UNKNOWN]: Jevity is a longevity membership, advanced blood work twice a year, a personalized plan, and a medical care team that guides you through it all. [UNKNOWN]: Most people get a lab report and and everything looks normal. [UNKNOWN]: Jevity gives you what comes after, a team that explains what your results mean for you and a plan you can actually follow. [UNKNOWN]: We just did our first draw, Jevity makes getting it done simple. [UNKNOWN]: They can come to you at home or your office or you can go to a local lab.

50:00 [UNKNOWN]: Or in and out in under 10 minutes, no fuss, no hassle, just one quick blood draw. [UNKNOWN]: Now we're waiting on results, and are looking forward to sitting down with the Jevity care team to see what they find and what to do next. [UNKNOWN]: Jevity complements your regular care, your doctor handles the checkup, Jevity handles the follow-through between visits. [UNKNOWN]: 88% of members see health marker improvement between their first and second round of blood work. [UNKNOWN]: It's about four bucks a day and HSA FSA eligible. [UNKNOWN]: So put that balance to work before it expires December 31st. [UNKNOWN]: More life starts here. [UNKNOWN]: get started at gogevity.com slash mic drop and use code mic drop for 20% off your membership.

50:44 [UNKNOWN]: That's GOGVITI.com slash mic drop for 20% off today. [UNKNOWN]: All right, so I don't even know what you're doing. [UNKNOWN]: I'm so sorry, man. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, I'm dealing with getting it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so he's he's still serving. [UNKNOWN]: He's doing his own thing. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's amazing. [UNKNOWN]: Good. [UNKNOWN]: So you go to seal team five. [UNKNOWN]: Can you walk us through the seal team five path that you took because Jay Tak was a big part of it. [UNKNOWN]: And that would later become a significant role that you played in combat was using those skill sets. [UNKNOWN]: So I'd love to get kind of the timeline if you will of your operational experience.

51:24 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Sorry. [UNKNOWN]: when you join I don't know if you ever thought about it like everybody's like I want to be a sniper or you want to breach or something like that I wasn't really interested in being a comms guy joining the teams you know that's not a place I saw myself being very heavily involved and you don't realize in like all the BS that goes into being a comms guy all the inventory and crypto and [UNKNOWN]: all the paperwork. [UNKNOWN]: So I got sent to calm school, like before I even checked into the teams and I'm like, crap, you know, you kind of get a handle and you meet some of the instructor cadre, kind of tell you about what the different roles and the platoons are going to be.

52:12 [UNKNOWN]: And so I kind of like saw the writing on the wall of what was going to happen to me in the future. [UNKNOWN]: So I accepted it and just tried to be the best cons guy I could be and in master the craft and it's the quickest way for somebody who looks stupid in the platoon is to be bad on cons. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And so I didn't want to be that guy and just tried to own the craft and learn every intricate detail of those radios and how to program them and be the best cons guy I could be. [UNKNOWN]: One of the things when you go through Buds is you can have all the ambition that you want but there's a lot of uncontrollable variables and so the best thing that any guy going into those programs can do is just do the best with what you have right now, you know, be the best team guy that you can be in your field and what you have.

53:10 [UNKNOWN]: And then, you know, I think that discipline will show and it pays off. [UNKNOWN]: Some guys, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much time you stick in, like you're in the room or land warfare. [UNKNOWN]: Some guys, stuff just doesn't click, you know, and those are different conversations that you have to have. [UNKNOWN]: But that being said, gotten to the comms thing, man. [UNKNOWN]: And then came back from my first deployment and ended up going to JDAQ and then that kind of [UNKNOWN]: What's the big deal for me? [UNKNOWN]: Which is cool, because JTAC is one of those jobs. [UNKNOWN]: You have to have a JTAC going out the wire. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's like medic, JTAC, sniper, you know, breacher, and then OIC are on officer.

53:53 [UNKNOWN]: So that's about, you know, and that's debatable sometimes. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so it was cool to be a part of, where was your first deployment, too? [UNKNOWN]: That was E.M.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N [UNKNOWN]: I don't know how much I can talk, it's not even that cool or sexy or anything, but doing the fit thing and trying to get into some trouble when you can, but very slow. [UNKNOWN]: One of the things that was a good piece of advice coming into the community was, hey, say your expectations low and then when something happens, it's going to be awesome. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's just going to be, you're going to be grateful for those opportunities. [UNKNOWN]: but you can't help but get freaking excited and want to do good work and especially with a squadron yeah especially when we were with those guys and there was a rotation and some guys got you know the freaking dream ops and uh it but for a lot of us it was just kind of like [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, it would be a bummer if this is how it is all the time, but was your impression of the squadron guys?

55:01 [UNKNOWN]: What you expected I guess? [UNKNOWN]: I mean did you get to see them train and operate and kind of get a feel for what level they were at? [UNKNOWN]: Yes, we got to work with two different squadrons while we were there. [UNKNOWN]: And the culture is very different between the different squadrons and as far as, as far as operationally and like technically consistent, you know, it was, they were really kind, hey, we're going to do house runs if anybody wants a screen or something in the future, and of course, you know, everybody's like, oh yeah, I'm going to go. [UNKNOWN]: And so that aspect, watching them operate, going out with them and doing dry runs and practice runs with them and seeing the level that they operate at was really cool to be a small part of.

55:51 [UNKNOWN]: But I would say the biggest difference is just culturally, you know, the way that the guys interact with each other, I laid back some of the squanderen's arverses, how [UNKNOWN]: There's a level of intensity and other squadrons and you can sense it, you know, when you come into the room and it's the same with the platoons. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know if that was kind of your experience like you could be in one platoon and it's like not a party platoon, but everybody's like, what's that bro? [UNKNOWN]: You know, come on in. [UNKNOWN]: And then you turn it on. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you turn it on and everybody's locked in. [UNKNOWN]: But then there's other platoons that are just, you know, everybody's just always locked in all the time. [UNKNOWN]: I think it could be good to be that, but... From my generation, that 96 to 08 window, this was the first 21 reorganization place in the middle of it.

56:41 [UNKNOWN]: So, team one, they called it Stahlog one. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it was like everybody was super, you know, shaving a haircut, check the last bill, like... Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Super hard line. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, the Death Star. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it was like Marines, you know, and team five was the polar opposite of that. [UNKNOWN]: at any rate so first deployment to him and you come back you go to jtac and then that subsequent deployment was was pretty meaningful correct yeah that's right where you know is it is in northern Iraq so it was all at that point [UNKNOWN]: Where was that? [UNKNOWN]: So I had had maybe back up because it'll be important for the story.

57:22 [UNKNOWN]: I guess in the later or the later part of the story. [UNKNOWN]: I had after right before my first deployment, 10 days later, I deployed after I had my first port. [UNKNOWN]: And then three months after my twins were born, I deployed Tyrak. [UNKNOWN]: And so it was going into that, you know, I want to do three, four deployments back to [UNKNOWN]: We went to Mosul, and it was a much more dynamic deployment. [UNKNOWN]: There is ISIS that's kind of fortified, Mosul, and a bunch of villages around it. [UNKNOWN]: And the Peshmerga, who are like a northern Iraqi kind of, they have like their own culture.

58:07 [UNKNOWN]: They're good people, they're, you know, good fighters, I think. [UNKNOWN]: And did you interview Eddie Gallagher? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So you probably heard about [UNKNOWN]: bunch of this kind of in the all the details. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so, you know, not to be redundant or anything, but the first half of our deployment was kind of like We had the flat the Ford line at troops and I says had these little villages and we'd go out and try to pick fights with one another, you know, and we're lobbing mortars and they're shooting rockets And we're shooting rockets and we're flying drones and they're shooting our drones and we're air striking them And so a lot of it was just developing pattern of life getting to know the areas [UNKNOWN]: And as a J-TAC, that can be very, very, very busy, because I always had ISR even when we weren't on the float back at our little house that we were staying at, I had to manage ISR assets and watch the cameras and it's like the kill TV kind of thing, you know.

59:06 [UNKNOWN]: And so, JTAC had me very, very busy on that deployment, but, you know, it's an interesting job that not a lot of people, I think, really understand, and it can be very time-consuming and not typically what you'd imagine a seal doing in that community, but I was super grateful to be a JTAC on that deployment. [UNKNOWN]: In that first part of it, were you actively calling in air strikes on a regular basis? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, pretty regularly. [UNKNOWN]: So we'd go out, build a pattern of life. [UNKNOWN]: And ISIS had rotation of guys that would come out, and then they'd rotate guys out of these little villages and the tunnel networks and systems that they had.

59:48 [UNKNOWN]: And every now and then they'd get frisky with mortars or taken pop shots at us and trying to sneak up and so managing air assets. [UNKNOWN]: and you know trying to find their tunnels and where they were carrying weapons and making IEDs and all that stuff. [UNKNOWN]: So there was always trying to find where they were at and then calling in air strikes on their locations. [UNKNOWN]: I mean dude. [UNKNOWN]: there's times they get massive tunnel networks in these mountains and you'd be looking at a guy just walking on the road with a back-back and he turned, turn, look up at you at your little drone and then pull out his AK-47, start taking shots at you and then run into and [UNKNOWN]: run into a cave and then you just watch the cave entrance for a couple hours and then his buddies would join them with their AK-47s and their buddies would join them with their AK-47s you're not like all right, you know, it's on now we know where now we know where you sleep and then you know executing targets and eventually you know getting to the point where the invasion starts clearing those areas so [UNKNOWN]: In that buildup, were there times where you actually struck those caves with air strikes or did you just make note of it and watch it?

1:01:06 [UNKNOWN]: Sometimes we'd make note of it and watch it. [UNKNOWN]: A lot of the times we're just trying to find them, like where are the cave entrances? [UNKNOWN]: Because when we do go in, when we push in with a bigger fighting force, we want to know the locations of all these. [UNKNOWN]: Or if we can shut them before the invasion starts, you know, that would be really nice. [UNKNOWN]: But I remember one time, and we found one, and it was like Helmsteep, or you loaded the rings, you know, loaded the rings. [UNKNOWN]: Dude, it was like this castle, you know, a rocks outside this cave, and all the rocks were white. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, they had, where they had built this, like dug the tunnel and put all the rocks outside. [UNKNOWN]: To build the little fighting positions outside the caves. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, hmm, that's like really stands out at the white rocks.

1:01:50 [UNKNOWN]: And I'm like upload my map data, update it. [UNKNOWN]: And I see on the grid coordinate where it is, I can see the white rocks of the map. [UNKNOWN]: And then I zoom out. [UNKNOWN]: And I see all over the mountain. [UNKNOWN]: These little white rock patterns. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, oh, my gosh, dude. [UNKNOWN]: I can, yeah, it's like they made it easy for me to find them. [UNKNOWN]: And so then it's like, how many aircraft and how much [UNKNOWN]: bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb was there and it's a lot of fun yeah a lot of fun to to see that how how long of an operation was that singular air campaign to to target all those so it's it was constant I mean two to three months of just every day every other day going out there and and doing that kind of doing that kind of work and [UNKNOWN]: You know, for me, the J-TAC, it keeps me very busy, but some guys that are on a rotation that aren't, you know, necessary, maybe we're not really getting into much of a fight that day.

1:02:49 [UNKNOWN]: You just find yourself sitting around when I'm doing my J-TAC model and looking at my little life piece and having a good time with the airplanes, but, you know, it kept me busy and GFC busy pretty. [UNKNOWN]: Was there an airframe that you used the most in those strikes or was it all different types? [UNKNOWN]: The first time we got troops in contact, a French Raphael's checked in, and they had accents. [UNKNOWN]: And then they got, we had some 18s pull-on station. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, you guys get out of here. [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to work at the Americans for a little bit. [UNKNOWN]: I worked a lot with 18s and [UNKNOWN]: We did a bunch with ATEN's, but dude, you know, I don't want to trash talk the head shed or I'm not the kind of guy that wants to dump on, you know, military command structures and all that stuff, but there's there's a lot going on there with designation of air assets, so.

1:03:47 [UNKNOWN]: I ended up working a lot with the with the patchies and stuff. [UNKNOWN]: I did a lot of work with those guys, especially when the initial invasion started. [UNKNOWN]: But I love working with 810s when I could get them. [UNKNOWN]: As a JTAC, do you have any input on the munitions used or is that totally up to them? [UNKNOWN]: No, no, that's it depends on the level of control. [UNKNOWN]: So J-tax for those people that don't know what a J-tax is. [UNKNOWN]: Maybe we should talk about that for a second. [UNKNOWN]: So for those of you that don't know what a J-tax is. [UNKNOWN]: A J-tax is a person that's inopportune that communicates.

1:04:28 [UNKNOWN]: several different aspects of what's going on in the battlefield. [UNKNOWN]: They can use ISR platforms to inform the platoon about what's going on that they may not be able to see. [UNKNOWN]: So, you've got to squirter off a target. [UNKNOWN]: You can communicate with ARSET and they'll tell you what's happening or you can see it. [UNKNOWN]: And then you can communicate that with the Platoon. [UNKNOWN]: So you got communication of battlefield movement. [UNKNOWN]: And then you also have the munitions. [UNKNOWN]: So JTACs have to become experts on the different types of munitions that we have in our arsenal. [UNKNOWN]: Different types of munitions that other countries have. [UNKNOWN]: Because you never know when a French or FIL might check in on station and they call things differently.

1:05:09 [UNKNOWN]: So then you have to learn those things and be able to apply them in certain places in ways that are going to be more effective. [UNKNOWN]: You don't need a 2,000 pound J.M. [UNKNOWN]: for a single guy walking out with an AK shooting at people. [UNKNOWN]: It's overkill. [UNKNOWN]: You know, communicating aircraft and finally the last piece that they kind of do, the last thing that they do is they coordinate aircraft in their location in the sky. [UNKNOWN]: So you are holding patterns and maintaining aircraft safe altitudes. [UNKNOWN]: And then communicating, you know, if different aircraft check on in on station.

1:05:53 [UNKNOWN]: Hey, here's what's going on. [UNKNOWN]: This is what where the 18s are, this is where the 18s are, this is where the patches are, so that everything's safe in a sky, as well as well on the ground. [UNKNOWN]: So there's a lot of moving pieces. [UNKNOWN]: There's a lot of clear communications and checklists and contracts that have to be done and executed perfectly so that [UNKNOWN]: Everybody doesn't die. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, because you're talking millions of dollars if aircraft are running into each other, and yeah Well, yeah, I'm just yeah, the deconstruction of that is is a high stress for sure But yeah, what was your initial? [UNKNOWN]: Sorry. [UNKNOWN]: So I just I kind of went into like a little bit of what J-tex You know in the munitions and [UNKNOWN]: Well, yes, so your level of control, I mean, so when an aircraft comes on station, do they give you kind of an inventory of what munitions?

1:06:43 [UNKNOWN]: That's right. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So they'll check in and they'll, they have like kind of a little spiel that they give you. [UNKNOWN]: And then you give, have your little thing that you're going to tell them and one of the things that they tell you is all the munitions that you have on board and you have. [UNKNOWN]: seconds to either write it down or just remember it. [UNKNOWN]: And then once they've checked in, you've checked in with them, then you can kind of start talking about what kind of work you're looking to give them and what you're looking for. [UNKNOWN]: was my what was my train of thought there um did that answer question it does good yeah could you and feel free to say no but uh could you do like a generic sample spiel for you and yeah no way man it's been night gosh I if I had my checklist I would you know [UNKNOWN]: This is one of the things Jay-Tacking is very different in the schoolhouse than when you go to a platoon That's something I learned real quick because there are a lot more when you go to the schoolhouse You're sitting down at like a picnic table and you're talking to the airplanes and you know You can see them perfectly.

1:07:49 [UNKNOWN]: It's a clear beautiful day He's watched the bomb stop and then you give the feedback and I [UNKNOWN]: No stress, you know, but then when you go to the platoon and you're in the back of a Humvee and you're running around the desert and there's fifties going off in your ear and then the enemies maneuvering and they're over there now and your vehicles now pointing this way, chaos. [UNKNOWN]: You know, totally different. [UNKNOWN]: I remember the first time I was at Jay Takking for a platoon. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, I'm freaking dead. [UNKNOWN]: Like this is... [UNKNOWN]: out of control. [UNKNOWN]: There's no way a person can handle this. [UNKNOWN]: But, you know, I was super fortunate in my platoon chief was a really good J-tak and kind of took me under his wing gave me the extra reps, you know, and kind of brought me up into a place where you can you can function, you know.

1:08:35 [UNKNOWN]: So it's just one of those things. [UNKNOWN]: There's a little bit of baptism my fire that has to happen to every J-tak, but dude, I don't think I could give you a full run through. [UNKNOWN]: I could probably do like a [UNKNOWN]: nine line and but it would be ugly and and I would really embarrass myself for all those guys that are still super into it but there's different types of controls to there's like type 1 type 2 type 3 and and a j-tac can kind of [UNKNOWN]: You know, type one, you can physically see the aircraft. [UNKNOWN]: You have to make contact with the airplane before it strikes. [UNKNOWN]: So there's a lot of precision and control.

1:09:17 [UNKNOWN]: I have to tell him, you know, the heading that he needs to be flying in to make the attack. [UNKNOWN]: And then type two, you're essentially relinquishing some of the responsibility to the pilot to make execute something safely. [UNKNOWN]: And then type three is kind of like, hey, have fun and tell me when they're all gone. [UNKNOWN]: And that happens a lot more with like a patchy, it's kind of nice because you got like 17 guys running with guns. [UNKNOWN]: You're like type three, take it, tell me when they're, tell me when they're gone. [UNKNOWN]: BDA. [UNKNOWN]: That's awesome. [UNKNOWN]: Nobody budgets for the water heater going out. [UNKNOWN]: Nobody's sitting there thinking I should set aside a few grand for a furnace breakdown this winter.

1:10:00 [UNKNOWN]: But it happens and when it does, it hits you at the worst possible moment and cost you way more than it should. [UNKNOWN]: The thing most homeowners don't realize is your regular insurance usually doesn't cover any of that. [UNKNOWN]: Plumbing failures, HVAC breakdowns, electrical issues, day-to-day wear and tear, you're on your own. [UNKNOWN]: And then you're scrambling to find a contractor getting three quotes hoping whoever shows up actually knows what they're doing. [UNKNOWN]: That's what home serve solves. [UNKNOWN]: You choose a plan for your needs and your budget starting as low as $4.99 a month. [UNKNOWN]: When something on your plan goes wrong, you call their 24-7 hotline and they get a local experience contractor scheduled.

1:10:41 [UNKNOWN]: No panic, no searching, they've been doing this for over 20 years, nearly 4.5 million customers, 4.8 out of 5 post-repair rating, 8 plus, [UNKNOWN]: better business bureau rating. [UNKNOWN]: If I had needed this, home serve is what I'd use. [UNKNOWN]: Join the millions of customers who trust home serve. [UNKNOWN]: For 50% less your first year, go to home serve.com slash mic drop. [UNKNOWN]: That's home serve.com slash mic drop for 50% less. [UNKNOWN]: Savings compared to renewal price, void and California, and Florida. [UNKNOWN]: is there a closer support mission that you called in that you're most proud of or that's the most memorable?

1:11:21 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, there's a lot of, I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: Do you know what the JTEC one does? [UNKNOWN]: So anybody that's talked on a phone, have you found yourself just like pacing as you talked to someone? [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, I found you're thinking. [UNKNOWN]: There was a time when I had two abadges checking in [UNKNOWN]: we had been receiving kind of small arms fire throughout the day from this one specific building. [UNKNOWN]: And I was doing the J-Tech wonder like with my little antennas and my push to talks and kind of walking between these two Matt Vs. And what was your bathroom between what? [UNKNOWN]: Two Matt Vs, like you'd up armored vehicles.

1:12:03 [UNKNOWN]: And I remember just seeing like dust getting kicked up in front of my feet. [UNKNOWN]: And then I'm kind of like what the, and then I hear, you know, like the, you know, the sounds and then the snaps and then and then like crap and I started I started running towards the Matt V in front of me and then that thing just starts King King King King, you know, blowing up with bullets guys are jumping in the vehicles, shutting the doors, getting on the guns and then I'm like turn around, run to the other Matt V. [UNKNOWN]: So I start running into the other Matt V in that thing, starch is good. [UNKNOWN]: Bing, ding, ding, ding. [UNKNOWN]: Turn around again, start facing the other one. [UNKNOWN]: And it was my first time I've ever been in a pickle.

1:12:44 [UNKNOWN]: I learned that that's actually the baseball term. [UNKNOWN]: You know that? [UNKNOWN]: It's like when a guy gets stuck between two bases, it's called being in a pickle. [UNKNOWN]: Really? [UNKNOWN]: So that's the first time I've ever been in a pickle. [UNKNOWN]: And I remember just checking with those guys, like they were in the middle of checking in. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, just, [UNKNOWN]: Stop, just a second, let me, you know, and then finally calling in some, some hell fires on the building and squashing it, but it was, that was probably one of the, like, funniest, like, random, don't wander when you're a J-tac, or have a handler, you know, sometimes you need a guy just holding your back, making sure you're not walking around. [UNKNOWN]: I think it's the Ram's head coach has like a specific employee that is assigned to him to keep him from getting on to the field.

1:13:32 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like he's following him around like a mom with a toddler at Target, you know, just like, yeah, we need those. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's funny. [UNKNOWN]: You just get so in your own little world, you know, and this what all the other things that are going on, it's very easy to get. [UNKNOWN]: I can imagine just sucked into it, but [UNKNOWN]: So that was the first half of deployment. [UNKNOWN]: The second half is when you guys actually kind of went in and did clearing operations. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we were accompanying our partner for. [UNKNOWN]: First it was the Peshmerga, kind of like clearing village after village after village. [UNKNOWN]: And then actually getting into the city and you know, our platoon. [UNKNOWN]: It got to our hope was that we could at least clear the first half of the city before the deployment was over. [UNKNOWN]: Because we knew it was just such a big operation and there were so so many moving pieces that.

1:14:15 [UNKNOWN]: we wouldn't be able to do it all in time and super grateful that we'd got to like right to the end where we pushed ISIS essentially over the river before Eddie and their platoon relieved us. [UNKNOWN]: And that was really interesting. [UNKNOWN]: World to be a part of, you know, the amount of civilians and people with white flags and just moving pieces and that conflict was pretty [UNKNOWN]: Pretty wild, but, you know, at the end of the day, we ended up doing it, but I, the Iraqi guys lost a ton of guys, they lost a ton of guys.

1:14:56 [UNKNOWN]: What was your impression of, and I know you didn't have a whole lot to compare it to, but kind of what you were expecting as far as their level of competency as fighters compared to what you actually experienced. [UNKNOWN]: just that rackies are I just guys well [UNKNOWN]: You know, for me, I never, I never seen anybody like blow themselves up, and they had all of these madmax vehicles. [UNKNOWN]: They had been in Mosul for a long time, and they had held it for a while. [UNKNOWN]: And Mosul is a huge city, and tons of infrastructure internally, and plenty of places to prepare, fortify, build up, and so they made a ton of these VVIDs and IED, you know, [UNKNOWN]: And so a lot of the time man, it was just like V-bit and I-E-D avoidance, you know, that was the game or like trying to clear places of I-E-Ds for vehicles to move in and stuff like that.

1:16:00 [UNKNOWN]: So, the V-bit, like the first day of the invasion, I think there was like five V-bits that are platoon in our element encountered. [UNKNOWN]: One was within, I mean, [UNKNOWN]: within hundred hundred yards. [UNKNOWN]: So, and I saw like eight guys just get erased. [UNKNOWN]: I rack you guys. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so that their ability to kill themselves for their causes, like, great. [UNKNOWN]: But as far as, like, fighters, they had some pretty complex ambushes that they had set up. [UNKNOWN]: There's a couple instances where they were doing one thing and then something else went off and you're like, dude, [UNKNOWN]: good move, you know, good move coordinating that, but not good enough.

1:16:44 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Wow. [UNKNOWN]: From the VBED and IED standpoint, did they ever, I know you said one was a fairly close call, but did you guys ever actually, from a protocol standpoint, engage them to stop it? [UNKNOWN]: So I remember when we first checked into the country, [UNKNOWN]: We were working with some SAS guys and we had a dinner and we were kind of debriefing each other and they had just got back from the slot and they had a v-bid attempt to break through the slot. [UNKNOWN]: And I was kind of like, what's y'all's protocol for V-bits? [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, there's only one thing you can do, mate, F in run, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, check, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And so that one instance where I got really, really close to the guy on the 50, we saw it from a distance, my new guy's drive in, I'm in the passenger seat.

1:17:36 [UNKNOWN]: He's like, is that one of ours? [UNKNOWN]: Is that one because it looked just tan, mean, small little, you know, tiny window on the front. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, that is not one of ours. [UNKNOWN]: You know, that thing is just, it has dual exhaust, just pumping through on the road towards us. [UNKNOWN]: like, Tim light it up, you know, and so we're trying to hit it. [UNKNOWN]: I'm seeing rounds kind of ping off spider web in that little windshield, and it didn't stop it. [UNKNOWN]: So they're going to see if these call came out quick, you know, back right or like break contact, and then our LPO was like back right, he was kind of acting chief. [UNKNOWN]: He made a tactical call and we turned around just in time and that thing kind of pulled into a group of Iraqis That we're trying to get in a vehicle didn't get in fast enough and and went off.

1:18:27 [UNKNOWN]: So very hard very hard to engage with if you can get them in time On ISR or something. [UNKNOWN]: It's it's obviously great, but do the the movement was so big of that in that city and the assets were [UNKNOWN]: Really hard to get a hold of man, you know, we are troops in contact a lot of times and we never got Air assets and that can be very very very frustrating So but yeah, you can't you can't really do much about it unless you get a jab in your you're in like a high enough position You get a javeline on it which one of our our guys did get a [UNKNOWN]: a massive, it's like an 18 wheeler, you know, V-Bid, Javeline Rockett hit right like right in front of this V-Bid and saved a bunch of dudes.

1:19:15 [UNKNOWN]: It's really cool to, it's really cool to witness. [UNKNOWN]: And of course it's like winning the NFL. [UNKNOWN]: When you see that thing go off, it's like, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know about how far away it was to do that one was just that one. [UNKNOWN]: We were up on an overwatch position for The Peshmeer guy who were pushing over About to take a city and all right little town and this V bit game cruising up. [UNKNOWN]: It was pushing up to the position He stopped on the road for a brief second like right outside of the range of the job I think it was like 4k it was a distance [UNKNOWN]: But we could see it, you know, visibly with our own eyes. [UNKNOWN]: There's a video somewhere out of it happening. [UNKNOWN]: And yeah, it was really cool to watch.

1:19:57 [UNKNOWN]: But saved a bunch of dudes just kind of being out. [UNKNOWN]: And do you have a video? [UNKNOWN]: I think I do somewhere. [UNKNOWN]: I can draw a sentence. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's pretty cool. [UNKNOWN]: Um, man. [UNKNOWN]: I know you were primarily supporting the Iraqi fighters, but were there instances where you and your guys actually went house to house and started clearing stuff or was it all? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, there were times when we do clearances ourselves, but we lost a guy like the first day of the [UNKNOWN]: And they kind of split our platoon in half and they kind of created a super platoon and we were going to kind of launch from this direction.

1:20:38 [UNKNOWN]: They were going to launch from this direction and in JJ fine and our UD guy died on like it was October 10th which so just a couple days from now 10 years ago. [UNKNOWN]: And, you know, there's a little bit of bitterness, like, obviously, this is good versus evil. [UNKNOWN]: We want to help these people, and we want to like save them from ISIS. [UNKNOWN]: But at the same time, like, do we want any of our guys? [UNKNOWN]: Do we want to put anybody at an unnecessary risk, especially with the ID threat, the way that it was, and the amount that they would booby trapped. [UNKNOWN]: So we would, I mean, we'd try to let the Iraqis do their thing, you know, and clear the structures at least at first, and then we would kind of come in and assist, but it, you know, as much as we wanted to, it required a little bit of restraint from us to not do their job for them, because they will let you.

1:21:32 [UNKNOWN]: If you start working for them and doing what they need to be doing, they'll sit there and let Americans die for their country all day long. [UNKNOWN]: So we recognize that and we were going to try to adjust accordingly. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: And any of the clearing operations that you guys actually did were there any of them that went kind of sideways and we're pretty hairy or businesses usually. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, there was a bunch of ID really, really close calls. [UNKNOWN]: Guys, I mean, I was from me to these lights to stepping on an ID and you probably had pretty similar. [UNKNOWN]: Experiences too, but yeah, I mean, so actually that the IED threat during my time in Iraq was relatively low.

1:22:13 [UNKNOWN]: Oh, really? [UNKNOWN]: Because it was, oh yeah, you're very good, that's right, yeah, it was a, it was just different, I guess, because it was so much more conventional from a kind of traditional warfighting standpoint. [UNKNOWN]: It was, at least at the first part, I mean, there were lines and, [UNKNOWN]: You know, like we would go ahead of the first Marine Division and scout out, you know, different routes for them to see, you know, hey, can they get there, right? [UNKNOWN]: Have you equipment across this bridge or is it booby trap or, you know, or whatever? [UNKNOWN]: And so, there are no forward operating bases, you know, we are sleeping and sleeping bags under a Humby at night and, you know, it was just a very different time.

1:22:54 [UNKNOWN]: But they hadn't had time to set up ID. [UNKNOWN]: He was nearly as much. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, of course, there were booby trap entrances and stuff like that. [UNKNOWN]: the huge kind of 0405 and beyond IEDs everywhere, you know, thank God was not a concern for us generally speaking, but yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I remember going into Billet because we clicked all the materials and stuff that they'd used and I remember going into Billetings this big man and it was floor to ceiling with IED components and like they were setting up and ready to go. [UNKNOWN]: For any kind of fighting force to come through and try to mess them up with ideas. [UNKNOWN]: I was their their primary thing and they they'd kind of give you land Just to let you come in and try to mess you up [UNKNOWN]: As far as close calls in gun fights and stuff, there was one night where I just had set up a really complex assault at night, and there was a low in the gun fight, and we had a pretty green, you know.

1:24:01 [UNKNOWN]: You know, there was a different guy. [UNKNOWN]: We had another guy that was Jay Taken at the time. [UNKNOWN]: And my AOSC was downstairs. [UNKNOWN]: Great guy. [UNKNOWN]: And I was up on this balcony and you know, just rain a bullet for like five hours, nonstop. [UNKNOWN]: And there was a low. [UNKNOWN]: And my buddy's like, hey man, I want to come up there. [UNKNOWN]: I want you to show me what's going on. [UNKNOWN]: And so like, yeah, come on. [UNKNOWN]: So it comes up on this balcony with me and I'm like, we're peeking over this ledge and I'm kind of like pointin' over here, here's this and over there's that and I hear this like, you know, with a lot of like, ping sound and just something punch me in my collarbone and then my buddy just cusses false to the ground, you know, and I'm like, I don't know what it's like to be shot. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I [UNKNOWN]: medic.

1:24:51 [UNKNOWN]: I start ripping off my thing one of the other guys that sees it happen, grabs him, pulls him downstairs and dude the guy ate a bullet, right like to the mouth, right to the lip, and lost a bunch of teeth, fortunately his dad's a dentist, so I'm probably pissed about it, but he was able to hook him up with some new smile. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, I don't know what happened. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know if the bullet hit something and tumbled in a part of it hit, but I Was totally fine. [UNKNOWN]: It was kind of like a big joke like you know He was called me what he called medic. [UNKNOWN]: You know who he's hurt [UNKNOWN]: You know, and everybody's goofing off and laughing, and it's funny man.

1:25:33 [UNKNOWN]: You know, there's moments where the gunfire was just so Overwhelming that all you can do is laugh and it is really just cool to be with those guys in those moments But I think that was a closest call. [UNKNOWN]: We two guys got purple hearts that day. [UNKNOWN]: Oh, for Getting shot one other guy got shot in the arm and yeah [UNKNOWN]: But both fine. [UNKNOWN]: He was back out three days later. [UNKNOWN]: Not that not that are the guy that got shot in the army He ended up going back to Germany. [UNKNOWN]: He's the guy got shot in the mouth stayed. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, he's still in man. [UNKNOWN]: He's stayed in yeah Three days later. [UNKNOWN]: He was back out with us. [UNKNOWN]: Wow. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it was awesome. [UNKNOWN]: He's got some good one. [UNKNOWN]: He's a good one. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, missing teeth. [UNKNOWN]: I miss a lot of stitches on his lip and But it's a smile.

1:26:14 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, so do you know did the bullet like come from the side and go out the side of his cheek or [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, his head was like right here, and we were looking at my little A-bass, which is like a little tablet with all, you know, all the little positions and stuff, and It entered right on the left side of his of his lip lower lip and knocked out a bunch of teeth. [UNKNOWN]: We couldn't find the bullet because it was no exit wound. [UNKNOWN]: And so we were afraid with the blood and you know all the missing teeth that it might be lodged and it's jaw or in the back of his throat and so, you know, ended up calling it a nine-line meta-back and pulled him out with a yellow and then got it, you know, he literally spat out the bullet and, uh, really?

1:26:58 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And he keeps it. [UNKNOWN]: No, I have, I do, I can't find it. [UNKNOWN]: I had a picture of a bunch of his teeth on the, I [UNKNOWN]: On the deck, but I couldn't, nobody could find Bull. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think they found it. [UNKNOWN]: Okay, so we just said he sped it out Three days later showed up. [UNKNOWN]: He's blacked to the grin. [UNKNOWN]: That's it. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, he's a good one dude. [UNKNOWN]: I swear if every if every officer in the Navy was was like him And it would be it would be a better place. [UNKNOWN]: He's one of the good ones, but yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: That was that that's probably the closest I you know anything ever happened to me, but Matt some credible [UNKNOWN]: you know, being out of the Navy at that point in, you know, a civilian, you know, business owner, I, of course, was, you know, glued to the TV when that was taking place, you know, knowing that all the guys were getting back into it.

1:27:46 [UNKNOWN]: There was so much coverage on kind of the atrocities that ISIS had been committing throughout the region. [UNKNOWN]: Was that something that you guys were witness to at all? [UNKNOWN]: Did you come across any of that? [UNKNOWN]: Or was it just, [UNKNOWN]: Purely kind of engaging. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think it was more engaging. [UNKNOWN]: There was obviously massive amount of civilian casualties and Excusions and whatnot, but like it was what it was we were getting the same televised videos that you guys were getting, you know, we were we were receiving a lot from that in the same way all were [UNKNOWN]: a lot of it was just mass graves or piles of bodies outside the city that were, you know, people trying to flee or whatever.

1:28:30 [UNKNOWN]: So that was one of the big things kind of initially pushing in is just watching and making sure that we weren't, you know. [UNKNOWN]: messing up the wrong people and so and also providing kind of a funnel for to receive some of those some of those civilians leaving the city. [UNKNOWN]: Did you have that? [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to be sketchy too because you don't know who's who's wearing what. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: Did you guys have an idea of ballpark of how many ISIS fighters were in Mosle when you're man? [UNKNOWN]: They were constantly throwing you know how intel can be as constant like. [UNKNOWN]: there's there's pictures of the boards the guys just started laughing like oh the Intel suggests a thousand fighters will be pushing and breaking through the flot at 3 a.m. tonight you know and so everybody's ready waiting that's what formed to come and nobody shows up and there's like I think the number if I remember correctly it was like five or six thousand ISIS fighters in the country and in Mosul at the time but it's been a while Mike and my memory might not [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I may not serve you well.

1:29:31 [UNKNOWN]: When you first came in, Obama was president, correct? [UNKNOWN]: That's right. [UNKNOWN]: I remember coming, you know, I got out the week that he was elected, relatively coincidentally. [UNKNOWN]: But I remember coming back as a canine trainer to the West Coast a couple of years later in the difference between morale, funding equipment was night and day. [UNKNOWN]: That's right. [UNKNOWN]: Having spent time, you know, your first bit of time under Obama deploying in that, now you find yourself in Iraq, different presidential administration, what sounds like significantly different rules of engagement and kind of support from the government.

1:30:16 [UNKNOWN]: That's what you guys were doing. [UNKNOWN]: Can you speak to, I guess, the morale and support and how you felt the government supported you or not going through different administrations and how big of an impact that has on your guys' morale and warfighting capability. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's a good question, like, and, you know, the best pieces in your closet are the ones you reach for every time. [UNKNOWN]: The ones that just work, whether you're heading out, keeping it casual, or looking for something to give somebody who's hard to shop for. [UNKNOWN]: I've got a cash mirror sweater from Quince, and honestly, it's one of the best things in my closet right now. [UNKNOWN]: starts at 60 bucks for cashmere.

1:30:56 [UNKNOWN]: That's not a typo. [UNKNOWN]: Now here's how they do it. [UNKNOWN]: Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out all the middlemen. [UNKNOWN]: So you're getting the same quality you'd pay three times as much for somewhere else. [UNKNOWN]: We're talking 50 to 80% less than similar brands. [UNKNOWN]: And it's not just sweaters, down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories, fine jewelry, leather bags, hotel quality bedding, [UNKNOWN]: Give the gift of quality this holiday season. [UNKNOWN]: Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com, free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. [UNKNOWN]: Now available in Canada and the UK too.

1:31:39 [UNKNOWN]: And when Quince asks, where you heard about them, let them know it was Mike Drop. [UNKNOWN]: It's the best way to support the show. [UNKNOWN]: Before I dive into it, I understand I'm not privy to all the decision-making that, [UNKNOWN]: The leadership has, and how politics affect the battlefield, I think every team guy can speak somewhat too. [UNKNOWN]: How big of a difference it can make. [UNKNOWN]: I will say when we started the invasion, Obama was still president, and there was an urgency. [UNKNOWN]: All of a sudden, it was like, it was election time.

1:32:22 [UNKNOWN]: you know, and so there's this huge urgency to make plans and do this thing, all of a sudden, and it felt very out of nowhere. [UNKNOWN]: And so one thing, it's like, okay, are we doing this for, yeah, all the guys are like, are we rushing this for the election or is this actually the right time to do this? [UNKNOWN]: So, [UNKNOWN]: But, you know, no matter what, we're going to be professionals and we're going to do what our country asks us to do, seeing the plans initially for the invasion. [UNKNOWN]: We hadn't gotten to Mosul by the time the election came or by the time the election was over. [UNKNOWN]: We were, I think we were just breaking into the city.

1:33:02 [UNKNOWN]: I can't remember exactly, but we weren't in the city when Trump got elected. [UNKNOWN]: And seeing the plans for that, they had like an escape section, like a zone of escape for the fighters that they weren't going to strike people leaving the city for. [UNKNOWN]: And everybody was like, so they can go somewhere else and do this again, like, what are we doing? [UNKNOWN]: So there was a lot of frustrations in there and then I remember as soon as as soon as the administration changed that that little escape zone got squished and closed off a real quick You know, and so there was elements to it or like what what are what are we doing?

1:33:47 [UNKNOWN]: Like why are we making these decisions and it seems to be manipulated by the political [UNKNOWN]: view point or whatever, obviously I can't make any exact correlation, but you know having guys like Trump come in and change the ROEs and how guys are going to be able to operate made a big difference, you know, because for a long time we weren't allowed to, we were just observing our partner for our partner force. [UNKNOWN]: And advising them we weren't allowed to accompany them on the operations and then you know that changes when the administration changes So all of a sudden we're we're able to take a much more active and participate participatory Rule in in the actual clearances and you know team guys are that we're crazy We're always trying to push the rules a little bit so you know where we're at and where our GPS is all right I know that he's probably told you all about that stuff, you know trying to [UNKNOWN]: Trying to push the boundaries a little bit.

1:34:45 [UNKNOWN]: Maybe be a little bit closer and we should at times or doing things that They wouldn't like us doing yeah, but you know, we want to we want to defeat the enemy and if it makes sense and we can do it within the The scope of the risk that we're we're willing to take then we're gonna we're gonna try to fight the enemy [UNKNOWN]: Well, it's interesting. [UNKNOWN]: I'm curious on the, you know, there's the election, which is an early November, but the actual administration shift isn't until towards the January. [UNKNOWN]: So in that window did things change or it was pretty, yeah, that's what's bizarre about it is it's almost like overnight the decision making processes.

1:35:27 [UNKNOWN]: And I don't know if it's like because turnover starts pretty quick, you know, as soon as they're elected, that doesn't necessarily mean that, like, yeah, the Trump may not be enacting president, I'm not sure how all this goes, I might be wrong, somebody can correct me. [UNKNOWN]: But I also think that maybe some of the leadership feels some of the pressure of, you know, how they're moving and changing the ROEs and making decisions on the battlefield. [UNKNOWN]: That some of that pressure make them off because they know a I'm not gonna be dealing with this administration in a couple months, but I don't know man You know, I don't that's a good question, but we notice a difference. [UNKNOWN]: It almost immediately which is yeah Yeah, to me that's pretty telling you know, and that you know of course There's no way to definitively prove if I get but you know It's like the if it looks like a duck and yeah, that's right back like a duck is the she's we got a duck Yeah, I mean some of those things [UNKNOWN]: There's not really much of an explanation other than it's purely driven by the election and the aesthetics of it or the optics of it.

1:36:27 [UNKNOWN]: But, you know, my goal is certainly not to drag this into a political discussion, but I am curious, you know, it's such a unique position to be a special operator in a combat environment during, you know, before, during and after an election. [UNKNOWN]: There's not very many people who who have been in that position, you know, and so I would ask kind of collectively as a platoon or a task element as an entity, you know, that is naval special operations in a combat environment. [UNKNOWN]: Did you guys pay really close attention to the election and did it affect your morale going that the way that it did?

1:37:08 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, oh, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: We had, I mean, there were guys who were more involved and and keeping tabs on it, but the officers were pretty good at updating us on what was going on, because we didn't all have sat phones and, um, [UNKNOWN]: We were using a lot of the local cell network and, you know, Wi-Fi to get our news and just like everybody else in the country. [UNKNOWN]: And so there was a couple of guys that why the election was going on. [UNKNOWN]: We're keeping guys posted on, hey, this is how it's sitting, this is how it looks. [UNKNOWN]: But as far as, you know, what I get, your question was like, are guys tracking it?

1:37:48 [UNKNOWN]: Or are they not tracking it? [UNKNOWN]: But how was it received? [UNKNOWN]: Like, was it a positive thing? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think almost overwhelmingly a positive thing. [UNKNOWN]: You say what you want about Trump obviously divisive in a lot of regards like funny and loud He was new. [UNKNOWN]: I think people know a lot more about him now than they did before, but I think over a majority of guys were pretty pretty excited about the Opportunities that might come and the and the change of the administration [UNKNOWN]: I share that, and I don't know if you guys were, but I was surprised, you know, I did not anticipate him winning. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think a lot of us were, because every, I mean, there's a big fake news push.

1:38:33 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like everybody, you know, nowadays it's like, oh yeah, I forgot about fake news. [UNKNOWN]: Everybody knows it's fake news now, but back then everybody trusted the polls and what they were telling us. [UNKNOWN]: So it came as a surprise to all of us. [UNKNOWN]: Now, just the distrust in that whole system is just growing and growing and I know you hope that the President surrounds themselves with people that are going to execute on the vision of the President and the people of the United States. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's the final fake news thing. [UNKNOWN]: I recently started doing this morning headline thing where I subscribe to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. [UNKNOWN]: Okay, yeah, yeah, and I just kind of highlight some of the things from the things page and I talk about him every morning and it's It's really interesting that you know in some some days there is a huge disparity between the two of them and other days It might as well be the same paper, which is fascinating.

1:39:29 [UNKNOWN]: What do you think the have you kind of done it long enough to kind of analyze what the new stories are that make them aligned versus [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I've only been doing it for about a week at this point, so it's pretty fresh, but even in that short amount of time, I think most people assume Wall Street Journal is relatively right-wing, and of course, the New York Times is very far left. [UNKNOWN]: You start to notice, for me, I guess, what I've started to notice are two main things, which is [UNKNOWN]: then the Wall Street Journal is actually far more central than it is I would say right-wing. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, it's more focused on finance and business and things that are typically more associated with conservatives, but when it comes to coverage of the President foreign policy, national policy, etc.

1:40:21 [UNKNOWN]: It's not particularly favorable to Trump and specifically. [UNKNOWN]: It is more more leaning, a little conservative, but it does seem more central. [UNKNOWN]: New York Times, unsurprisingly, is pretty anti-everything right-wing in any regard. [UNKNOWN]: The second thing that I find fascinating, maybe I shouldn't, or maybe not even fascinating, but that I definitely notice, and it's very apparent. [UNKNOWN]: is the, is the slant even within an article, you know, the way something is not just covered but the way that it's worded and, and the things that they highlight on the things that they gloss over to get an emotional response from the reader that even not being a journalist, you know, not being the sharpest tool in the necessary.

1:41:07 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's very obvious, you know, and what's really cool though is like one story in particular [UNKNOWN]: And this was both papers covered at pretty similarly, which was these riots taking place in France. [UNKNOWN]: And both of them, the way that they cover it, is students are violently protesting to change the caliber and funding and resources for schooling. [UNKNOWN]: Now, when you read that, it's like, that's actually probably kind of a positive minus the violent part of what you don't break stuff and set things on fire, but unlike the French. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: As it turns out, a number of French listeners, viewers in France observing it, looking out their window watching this happening, they're like, [UNKNOWN]: that's not the whole story.

1:41:57 [UNKNOWN]: Overwhelming majority are African migrants who are just trying to take way more advantage and milk the system way harder and they're just steam rolling everybody. [UNKNOWN]: Like these are 15 year old French girls that are you know spray painting stuff when those because they want better laptops. [UNKNOWN]: Like these are violent. [UNKNOWN]: you know, people who've been in the country a very short, you know, and it's like, yeah, none of that was in either of the papers, you know, and, and it just, I think, reminds and highlights just how, I don't want to say sinister, but in a way, kind of is. [UNKNOWN]: The way the media manipulates the way people think, you know, and these are as old school of a of a media outlet as it gets.

1:42:44 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, you know, to establish Media outlets that that are hard copy printed delivered to the front door like this isn't me reading like this is the hard copper news But you know hard hard copy newspaper and I did that intentionally because it is such a [UNKNOWN]: deeply rooted media outlet in our country. [UNKNOWN]: And so I, to me, it's fascinating. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and it's made me now download more apps and source news from other places just to give it more of a well-rounded image. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So it will evolve as I continue to it. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I, by [UNKNOWN]: We'll start looking at, you know, AP and E-pop news and even stuff like Al Jazeera to just to see how they're viewing it, you know, and not that I would necessarily align with that.

1:43:33 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, but I think it's important to, you know, look at BBC and NPR and, you know, and really get a kind of a general gist of, [UNKNOWN]: of how it's being covered. [UNKNOWN]: But it's it's pretty wild to see how calculated it is. [UNKNOWN]: Yes, it's probably my biggest step. [UNKNOWN]: Sometimes it seems borderline nefarious. [UNKNOWN]: For sure, you know, it's very. [UNKNOWN]: Depending on the topic. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, man. [UNKNOWN]: All right. [UNKNOWN]: So, [UNKNOWN]: Sounds like a pretty dynamic deployment, where either full six months or even longer. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, full six months. [UNKNOWN]: And then we rotated out, like I said earlier a little bit earlier, my wife had, we had started building a family, had all these kids.

1:44:14 [UNKNOWN]: And I was eager to do a third. [UNKNOWN]: I thought it would be a lot of fun to do that again. [UNKNOWN]: And Master Chief came in and was like, hey guys, you guys have had a really good deployment. [UNKNOWN]: We would like to spread out some of this [UNKNOWN]: And, but that being said, you can expect a bunch of you guys are going to probably get a little bit of a chat. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, a worst deployment, you know, next time, don't expect it to be this good. [UNKNOWN]: Again, you know, a lot of you guys will probably end up in Guam, unfortunately, and I'm like, dude, what? [UNKNOWN]: If I'm going to be away from my wife and kids, I want to I want a good reason, you know, and I was talking to my wife at home.

1:44:55 [UNKNOWN]: We didn't have any support, no family out there or anything in San Diego, and I had a bunch of bodies from my first to put in that win over to Buds. [UNKNOWN]: told me it was a cool spot, I knew the chief over there and started talking to him a little bit when I was on the point and he said, hey man, if you want to come over, I'm going to love to have you on over at second phase and so I got a job over at second phase and good opportunity for me to spend a little bit more time with the wife and the kids and give back to the community in a different way. [UNKNOWN]: I sure that experience, you know, same kind of thing, did a couple deployments at that three and then went to instructor duty.

1:45:36 [UNKNOWN]: I'm curious, I didn't spend any time in second phase as an instructor. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for the listener, just describe what a second phase instructor is, does and what your experience was like there. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so second phase of training is combat swimming. [UNKNOWN]: You know, the divers kind of make fun of us because we're not really divers. [UNKNOWN]: They get poopy pants about it. [UNKNOWN]: But we did a team guys teach combat swimming. [UNKNOWN]: And so you're learning open circuit and close circuit diving. [UNKNOWN]: You're learning how to operate and do procedures under high stress environments. [UNKNOWN]: You're learning how to navigate underwater in dark and bright environments.

1:46:17 [UNKNOWN]: Um, ultimately diving is an insertion platform for team guys, you know, it's how we get to an operation. [UNKNOWN]: And so, it's important that every team guy knows the ins and outs of how to get to a target. [UNKNOWN]: on, you know, either as the buddy or as the driver who holds a little compass in a attack board, a lot of people don't realize like you don't have GPS under the water, you know, you are memorizing bearings, you're memorizing distances and times and then you're navigating looking at a tiny little compass and a little stopwatch and checking your depth gauge, you know, [UNKNOWN]: Checking your depth and trying to find a place, a little spot and maybe a little bucket with Kim Lights on it, deep in some pier in San Diego and so it's a tough skill to learn.

1:47:13 [UNKNOWN]: There's a lot of trouble shooting and just getting students through reps, but first thing of second phases is learning how to breathe underwater and how to get comfortable dealing with. [UNKNOWN]: Having a bad time underwater is a really important part of it, but I would say it to summarize like the first section of second phase It's okay. [UNKNOWN]: We know you're tough. [UNKNOWN]: We know you're you can handle a bad time Now can you handle a bad time and follow instructions? [UNKNOWN]: Precisely, you know, and so now we're trying to find something different and you like [UNKNOWN]: can you be smart and exercise discernment and the instructions that we gave you even when things are going all wrong?

1:47:58 [UNKNOWN]: That's the first portion and the second portion is, all right, now we're going to teach you how to do it under water and or sorry, how to do it at night and in the dark, in the open, in the open ocean or in the bay, trying to get to a target and plant bombs. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's such a dangerous thing and you're you're compounding it by adding all of these problems essentially and you know pool competency week, which is the second or third week of Yeah, they keep moving it kind of back and forth because you do I think they do dive medicine now Yeah, they do dive medicine first so it's the first week and then you kind of go right into pool competency [UNKNOWN]: And again, for the listener, can you kind of briefly summarize what pool competency we could look for?

1:48:44 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so when you first show up to second phase, we, we operate on like an open circuit. [UNKNOWN]: So you can see all the bubbles. [UNKNOWN]: It's like traditional scuba. [UNKNOWN]: And, um, [UNKNOWN]: And we give the students kind of a list of procedures that they have to memorize. [UNKNOWN]: And they'll start practicing some of these procedures right off the get go. [UNKNOWN]: But as they're practicing those EP's, what we're also doing is we're getting them familiar with the system. [UNKNOWN]: And watching them do certain tasks underwater in, you know, [UNKNOWN]: or with their masqueror without a masqueror, whatever it is.

1:49:28 [UNKNOWN]: So one of the tests could just be taking off your gear, kissing the deck and blowing out till you come to the surface at a simple FSA. [UNKNOWN]: I think that's like one of the first tests that we do. [UNKNOWN]: Can you take off your gear and not just take it off in the exact way that we tell you to take off, weight belt first, waist strap, chest strap, pull the tanks over here. [UNKNOWN]: There's everything has to be done absolutely perfect. [UNKNOWN]: You blown your air out your FSA to the surface. [UNKNOWN]: You've given me the OK, and I feel fine. [UNKNOWN]: All right, now you're ready for the next step. [UNKNOWN]: Now you're going to do blindfolded. [UNKNOWN]: And so we have a system that we kind of build on one thing to the next.

1:50:12 [UNKNOWN]: Now you're going to take off your buddy's tanks. [UNKNOWN]: You're going to put them on, and your buddy's going to FSA, and then it's going to go down and do the same thing to you. [UNKNOWN]: And you're going to [UNKNOWN]: Buddy breathe hold time. [UNKNOWN]: There's only one system. [UNKNOWN]: You both have to share. [UNKNOWN]: So you're sharing there and you're going through these procedures a little bit more stress, right? [UNKNOWN]: And now do it blindfolded and so we're we're slowly building these students tolerance for the procedures are getting harder [UNKNOWN]: the risk is getting a little bit higher, and we want to see you execute on the process exactly, no deviation, and if you deviate in any way you fail, you know, and so ultimately what that leads to is a test called OCA, it's called pull comp, it would commonly know to all of us as pull comp, and that is a test where [UNKNOWN]: you know, you have a student and instructor.

1:51:06 [UNKNOWN]: Sometimes it's more than one instructor defending on who the person is and if they get a little spicy. [UNKNOWN]: But in that's 20 minutes of just. [UNKNOWN]: hell, under water, where they are putting you through the ringer, the rip and everything out, they're starving you of oxygen, they're giving you hypoxic, they're giving you all sorts of nuts in your hoses and what we want to see is you to take all those procedures that we've expected you to learn over the past couple of weeks and execute them perfectly. [UNKNOWN]: You have to have three finger tabs on your shoulder straps when you [UNKNOWN]: When you go on to the next process or you could fail, you know, in the whole time the instructors ripping out your mouth piece, you got guys getting bloody noses, teeth ripped out, dudes crapping themselves, throwing up under water, black and out.

1:52:00 [UNKNOWN]: totally panicking, swimming to the surface, getting AGEs, it's a tough test, man, and it's one of the better kept secrets of Buds, I think. [UNKNOWN]: How did you do? [UNKNOWN]: Terrible. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, we all do it first. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I do it first. [UNKNOWN]: I passed on my last attempt, you know, and, uh, [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's funny because it was for sure not a level of comfortability. [UNKNOWN]: It's one thing. [UNKNOWN]: I was very comfortable in the water and even underwater, you know, highpox, a cold and your breath, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: I just, in the first, I think it was four tries, because I think there's five, five attempts, right? [UNKNOWN]: Four, four, okay. [UNKNOWN]: So the first three, it was always some little stupid thing that I just either did out of order or did wrong or whatever.

1:52:49 [UNKNOWN]: Luckily, it was never a panic thing for me. [UNKNOWN]: Again, I was fortunate to have spent so much time in and under the water growing up, but even for me, being super comfortable, it was a huge challenge, you know, and another thing that doesn't get talked about much is the tread and water with time. [UNKNOWN]: Dude, I was going to talk about, I was going to ask you about that. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, the... [UNKNOWN]: And again, that was one thing, fortunately, I actually passed out the first time, because I was a bit of a stronger swimmer, but I mean, that's a kick in the nuts, you know, and it's what two minutes, twenty-eighties in your hands above the floor. [UNKNOWN]: Five minutes. [UNKNOWN]: Five minutes. [UNKNOWN]: Five minutes. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, five minutes. [UNKNOWN]: Twenty-eighties, fourteen pound, weight belt, and fins, no hands. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

1:53:29 [UNKNOWN]: And it's tricky. [UNKNOWN]: I struggled with the tread. [UNKNOWN]: Big time. [UNKNOWN]: I passed it my first time, but it was not a pretty experience for me, man. [UNKNOWN]: And it's just to put out evolution. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, a hundred percent. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: There's those guys that were lacrosse, or what's a waterfall low. [UNKNOWN]: That could just do it, like, into the smoke and lead. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, like blowing my mind, I don't understand it. [UNKNOWN]: My first attempt, we had two FBI guys kind of auditing the class and going through the program with us as like a gentleman's course for them. [UNKNOWN]: but I was, I did the tread, and I remember, you do the tread, your hands are above the water, and the way the 2080s are on your back, you can't, you can't like keep your head above the water at the old time, you kind of keep your head in the water so the 2080s aren't holding you, and you kind of come up for breath, is it the same when you guys kind of, yeah.

1:54:22 [UNKNOWN]: So, you hear time, touch your instructor's hand, and start swimming to the other side of the pool. [UNKNOWN]: So, slap the hand, start swimming on my back. [UNKNOWN]: And dude, my face is just tingling. [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, eye-poxic. [UNKNOWN]: Get to the other side, touch the instructor's hand, start swimming, brush stroke to the other side, and I don't remember the rest. [UNKNOWN]: As soon as I touch that hand, he goes, I see fingers, and I kind of like, [UNKNOWN]: black out next thing I know I'm like getting the the slap of life you know stop sleeping stop sleeping and the guys are pulling my my gear off me and um I just start throwing up like crazy it was the worst experience for me man and the next day I was I was so sore my whole body just getting hypercat me and I boxy yeah yeah yeah yeah [UNKNOWN]: Just messed me up.

1:55:15 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I hate the guys that didn't struggle on it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I wouldn't say that I didn't struggle It was manageable, but even with that I mean there is a technique, you know, it's not it's not just giving it everything You have it's there was a smart way to go through it and back to the pool comp stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Sorry. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, thank you [UNKNOWN]: There's four tries. [UNKNOWN]: I am curious. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, there's of course a very specific pattern and procedure that they have to follow. [UNKNOWN]: As an instructor, I know you have some discretion, but how much discretion do you have as an instructor to say? [UNKNOWN]: Yep, guy passed when, like, where are there guys that you maybe were a little more lenient on than others or were you pretty standard on?

1:55:58 [UNKNOWN]: Not typically, man. [UNKNOWN]: There's, you know, [UNKNOWN]: I think what really came down, where the discretion was, is the intensity of the test sometimes. [UNKNOWN]: Some instructors put on a really hard test, they got a good breath hold, you know, they have a system, we all have like a little checklist, you have to see all these things in pull comp. [UNKNOWN]: You know, there's a certain amount of stuff that has to happen. [UNKNOWN]: But the amount that your mouthpiece gets ripped out, how often you're breathing without an exhalation nose. [UNKNOWN]: Because what they'll do is they'll tie the exhalation nose so you can't breathe out of your mouthpiece. [UNKNOWN]: And it really trips people up because they don't have a mass, water starts going through your nose. [UNKNOWN]: You don't realize you have to breathe in through your mouth and out through your nose.

1:56:41 [UNKNOWN]: But guys, we'll panic, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And so instructors all have their tests are very slightly different, but for the most part the the biggest difference would be the intensity sometimes of that test and and I would say that when it comes to procedural differences if if a student's messing up or procedure they will fail the they will fail the test like across the board. [UNKNOWN]: There's guys that I I really liked and I was rooting for one of the guys is dad died in 9-11 Wanted to serve he was a little kid, you know, and and wanted to serve his country and and be like his dad and you see guys like that and like dude if anybody [UNKNOWN]: should be here, we want people like you, you know, and so you root for them, but you see them fail and fail and fail and it's like I'm not going to be the guy to lower the standards, you know, I it's I have a job to do and it's a hold to line and keep everybody to the same standard.

1:57:43 [UNKNOWN]: And I'm not going to compromise the integrity of the community. [UNKNOWN]: Peas this guy can't have a good freaking figure out a procedure, or because he's a good guy. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm whatever it is. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so I would say the the discretion aspect kind of just comes to how hard of a test guys run and sometimes it's just a dude's just an animal, you know, and that's the way that he he interacts with the what he's been tasked with and and other guys are a little bit more chill, you know, just pulling out the mouthpiece. [UNKNOWN]: There's times to goof off a lot of times they don't expect that, you know, yeah.

1:58:23 [UNKNOWN]: Did anybody mess with you when you were on pool comp or anything like was there any like funny stories or [UNKNOWN]: I would just say that the one thing that I experienced multiple times was yanking my mouth piece out at the end of an exhale and to me that's the one thing where it's fake. [UNKNOWN]: I get it, but you don't have long when you're like, and then they go, yank and you're like, you're already in media, I've got a lot of air, and so like the first two tries that happen. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know how a human being can pass that, I guess that's why I ask, and that speaks to the intensity piece that maybe if it's a guy you're rooting for, or you hope makes it.

1:59:12 [UNKNOWN]: You at least are completely fair and you're not doing things like that to him, but [UNKNOWN]: I will say like a lot of instructors don't try to pull out the mouthpiece on an exhale, but in this kind of journey, I don't even know if you're people like this very much. [UNKNOWN]: But for the most part, if it does happen, and it happens again, the instructor is typically aware. [UNKNOWN]: Like we can tell when things are getting bad and we're [UNKNOWN]: You know, we don't want to be unsafe. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I tell the students, I say, hey, this is a very unique time in your life Because you're going to come as close as you can to dying, but be safe. [UNKNOWN]: You have a whole staff that's looking after you who wants you to [UNKNOWN]: to be safe.

1:59:54 [UNKNOWN]: We want to execute what the mission that we need to do. [UNKNOWN]: We want to execute this test. [UNKNOWN]: But we are going to push you to your absolute limit. [UNKNOWN]: And the instructor will should typically, I'm not saying that there aren't, you know, mistakes. [UNKNOWN]: But for the most part, at least if they register that or that something's going to get in say for panic or you pass out, they're going to take care of you. [UNKNOWN]: But I would rather you pass out if I pull the mouthpiece out on an exhale than to see panic and bolt to the surface. [UNKNOWN]: And sometimes that happens, yeah, but there's all sorts of funny stuff. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, you buddy ditch a non, guys are blindfolded trying to swap gear and then they get lost.

2:00:39 [UNKNOWN]: And they're wondering around the pool and then find another group of guys and there's three dudes mouth, you know, buddy breathing and everybody's confused, feeling each other's face is trying to figure out who's who is this, you know. [UNKNOWN]: There's just some funny stuff that happens and you remember the humor of just being an instructor and just some of the some of the instructors say. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, some of the funniest things I've ever heard a human being say were buds and structures during training. [UNKNOWN]: No, no, two ways about it. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, the buffoonery that takes place and the things that some of those guys come up with is world-class comedic material. [UNKNOWN]: I was on a run the other day by the beach and I just, in my mind, came to me.

2:01:23 [UNKNOWN]: I remember working hell weak and an instructor gave some super serious. [UNKNOWN]: you know, lecture on accountability and doing the right thing and the students aren't going back and forth from the surf zone and then an instructor comes with his bull horn, there's a moment of silence and the classic like. [UNKNOWN]: they will write high coups in a hundred years about what's going to happen tonight. [UNKNOWN]: You know, everybody's like, what does that mean? [UNKNOWN]: You know, like, oh my gosh, it's just funny, like, you know, you go from these moments of a little airy to the structure, just kind of like making a joke.

2:02:07 [UNKNOWN]: God, it's so funny, man. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, some of some of the, [UNKNOWN]: things that came out of a bull horn especially during hell week like while the sun's going down. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, pure epicsness. [UNKNOWN]: The thing that stood out to me the most in diving period, not just specific to to second phase was how crappy buddy breathing is. [UNKNOWN]: I remember doing it even at the team, like in, you know, the dive portion of our work up where at night, you know, I mean, in the harbor in kind of the launching area, but we would have to buddy breathe out for you know, a few hundred yards and buddy breathe back or whatever. [UNKNOWN]: Like that's about as dicey as it gets, you know, at night trying to share a a re-breed their underwater, where you can't see anything, like if if you think you're comfortable underwater, do that, and that will tell you for sure if you are.

2:02:58 [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely, that's another thing. [UNKNOWN]: With that rig is, you don't realize you're breathing out of a bag, you know, there's a balloon on your chest that you're breathing out of. [UNKNOWN]: And that balloon is slowly getting smaller and smaller and smaller. [UNKNOWN]: And then you let more oxygen into it. [UNKNOWN]: And so that affects where you're flying in the water and the water line and you're buoyancy. [UNKNOWN]: And it can be really dangerous on a breath-old if you're at three feet and then ten feet and then three feet again. [UNKNOWN]: You're doing the porpoise thing going up and down. [UNKNOWN]: And it could be pretty sketchy when you're buddy breathing.

2:03:38 [UNKNOWN]: You've got a guy that's kind of on top and you're right behind him and you reach over your tap and you can't let the system's close so you can't let water into the system otherwise it creates like a caustic solution and it'll burn like immediately burn your mouth. [UNKNOWN]: So you have a valve that you rotate on the mouthpiece. [UNKNOWN]: pull it out, open the valve, take a breath, couple breaths, until your buddy reaches up, taps it to get a request, but it's, I mean, you're right on top of each other, trying to swim on a bearing at a certain depth. [UNKNOWN]: It's nice. [UNKNOWN]: It's no joke. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you have, and that's why we do pull comp, you know, you have to become, you have to be able to just exercise those, those EPs that we teach you and do the thing that every frog man's trained to do.

2:04:29 [UNKNOWN]: Um, in the years that you were there as an instructor, do you, could you ballpark how many times students drowned and you had to pull them out and kind of recess to tell you all the time. [UNKNOWN]: All the time, you're pulling the guys out and at most times they're, their lungs aren't too full of water, you know, fully drowned, but you're slapping them back to life and hey, wake up, you know, stop sleeping, you know, come back, all the way, you call them back. [UNKNOWN]: But there are a couple instances, for second phase, more concerning is getting like AGs or serious dive, related injuries. [UNKNOWN]: Fortunately, there's a chamber right there. [UNKNOWN]: And for those of you guys that don't know, it's almost like an underwater stroke.

2:05:09 [UNKNOWN]: Like think of a bubble in your brain. [UNKNOWN]: And if you get a bubble in your brain, the only thing to get rid of the bubble is to go back down to depth. [UNKNOWN]: So you go in a chamber and you crush the bubble because you're [UNKNOWN]: You're going to deep deep, you know, simulated level of the ocean. [UNKNOWN]: So I'm seeing guys get AGs is not. [UNKNOWN]: Did you guys experience that? [UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: We had a couple students get AGs and that's, I mean, it's like seeing a stroke visit victim. [UNKNOWN]: They don't, they can't talk, they're half limp, but as soon as you get them into that chamber, man, like as soon as they're on depth, they just know what happened. [UNKNOWN]: You know, what are we doing?

2:05:49 [UNKNOWN]: Did that? [UNKNOWN]: Totally normal. [UNKNOWN]: Did that end any of their careers or did they all record? [UNKNOWN]: No, not typically. [UNKNOWN]: A lot of times, guys will get rolled. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: You'll get rolled for a while and spend some time in that branch or a rollback land, but yeah, not career ending, not that I saw. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So one of the things that I, I guess, realized coming back as an instructor is, [UNKNOWN]: It's such a neat experience to go through it as a student and think you know how it's run or what happens behind the burden and then actually get to see it. [UNKNOWN]: Was there a thing that stood out to you that was kind of the most surprising coming back as an instructor that kind of changed what your assumption was as a student?

2:06:38 [UNKNOWN]: I think for me it's just now having a peak behind the community and knowing the guys it's like these guys want to go home. [UNKNOWN]: They have families that they need to get back to, but they have a job to do and if you're not doing the job. [UNKNOWN]: And they don't mind hanging out a little bit longer and make things make sure that you learn the lessons that you need to learn, but I think ultimately just getting to see the humanity behind the guys and getting hang out and instructors office and hearing the stories. [UNKNOWN]: In turning it on, walking out the door and all of a sudden, you know, the face changes, the blorns get turned on and the world is very different from what you're looking at.

2:07:21 [UNKNOWN]: But everything is so, I don't want to say scripted, but it's all planned. [UNKNOWN]: This is something that's been happening for a long time. [UNKNOWN]: guys have been rotating in and out of these positions for a long time, and so it needs to be consistency for every generation of SEALs in both students that come through. [UNKNOWN]: But I think the biggest thing for me was just, you know, their guys that are putting their pants on just like every other person, and [UNKNOWN]: You know, some of it is a little bit of showmanship, we're tricking you a little bit. [UNKNOWN]: Right? [UNKNOWN]: Don't you think? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for sure. [UNKNOWN]: If you were to ask me that same thing, it was the second point you brought up is how structure it is.

2:08:04 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: As an 18 year old, going through, you know, my perception is, here are six instructors that are sadistic. [UNKNOWN]: And they're just making things up as they go along. [UNKNOWN]: And they're not. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: Like every second of every day is literally every structured schedule plan. [UNKNOWN]: There are, you know, guardrails to everything. [UNKNOWN]: There's all these different procedures put in place to ensure that, you know, you're not going to die. [UNKNOWN]: You're going to think you're going to die. [UNKNOWN]: But maybe even hope. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: But yeah. [UNKNOWN]: That's what surprised me. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: All those deviations, all the things. [UNKNOWN]: We're like, all right. [UNKNOWN]: You guys want to take your time. [UNKNOWN]: Well, you know what? [UNKNOWN]: Tonight we're going to do this instead. [UNKNOWN]: There are a point on day. [UNKNOWN]: They talked about that for months. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Kind of stuff. [UNKNOWN]: But even still, I think to a certain extent, you know, like, we know in the back of our head that they're messing with us.

2:08:52 [UNKNOWN]: They're just, they're trying to manipulate our emotions and trick us to make a decision that's going to get us out of the program or whatever. [UNKNOWN]: But we let allow ourselves to be duped, I think a lot of times you just let like a nice donut and a warm blanket You quit and there's no donuts, but you might get a warm blanket, but you know, there's just there's some elements to it that are just showmanship and yeah How old were your children when you were an instructor? [UNKNOWN]: I think they're like four and three years old. [UNKNOWN]: Did you ever struggle with turning the instructor? [UNKNOWN]: They're taking the instructor hat off when you come home like did that ever bleed over into your home like I didn't think I did Maybe it's about obviously yeah, you know, there was never [UNKNOWN]: I don't, I was a pretty, I'm not a hugger, you know, I think I was fair, but, um, but you weren't good.

2:09:49 [UNKNOWN]: I helped the standard. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to like be overly nice to student, but the nice thing about second phases is that you can be a little bit more of a mentor, right? [UNKNOWN]: Statistically speaking, a lot of these guys are going to make it through the program, I could be operating with them one day. [UNKNOWN]: And so I was never, I worked hell weeks and stuff with first phase, but, um, [UNKNOWN]: But for the most part, I didn't really have to do that with the kids, but I did notice in myself like a general lack of or a general flippancy for fathers instructions. [UNKNOWN]: And I think that's more often than not like where I get really frustrated. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, dude, how hard is it just a follow-up freaking simple instructions?

2:10:30 [UNKNOWN]: And the hard thing is when you're around professionals that are [UNKNOWN]: So good at following instructions coming on to every nobody cares. [UNKNOWN]: You are Nobody is in a rush. [UNKNOWN]: It seems to do things that's where it gets that's where I get frustrated and you know Maybe lose my temper [UNKNOWN]: or stuff like that. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think it's like maybe that is bringing the instructor home to a certain extent. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, I think so. [UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's what I was experiencing. [UNKNOWN]: My kids were a little younger, but even getting out from that time, from that phase and my professor career, it was exactly that same thing.

2:11:12 [UNKNOWN]: It was like, [UNKNOWN]: Did you not hear what I just, you know, like, I told you to do this. [UNKNOWN]: It should be happening, like, your pants are on fire. [UNKNOWN]: It's right. [UNKNOWN]: We had our, we had our students, like, you know, again with the funny things that students do one day, they're just seem to be a chant, do what they say and it won't be as bad. [UNKNOWN]: You know, the students would just go around saying it around the grinder to what they say and it won't be as bad Do what they we'd give instructions do what they say and it won't be as bad and so all day long And I have a video somewhere in my kids just like do what he says and it won't be as bad You know, just joking like sending it to my buddies like these guys are layers as are cleaning up their blocks. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know Okay, but [UNKNOWN]: And I love my kids and have a great relationship with them.

2:11:58 [UNKNOWN]: But there are certainly things for me that I saw in myself that I wanted to be at work with the guys. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't want to be at home. [UNKNOWN]: So there was elements of that where I was kind of like in my idolizing. [UNKNOWN]: this career and destroying something that I made a commitment to and made another do my wife and so there are elements of that that I really had to wrestle with and come to terms with for sure. [UNKNOWN]: Same here for 100. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's a lot of guys and I know that there's guys that can [UNKNOWN]: freaking do it. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know how they do it. [UNKNOWN]: I have great relationships with their kids, great relationships with their spouses, can operate, do all the deployments and stuff, and have long careers.

2:12:40 [UNKNOWN]: But for me, I mean, I don't want to say that it's sociopath, but he's a boarder zone at all. [UNKNOWN]: How do you have that kind of compartmentalization? [UNKNOWN]: All right, so as you wrapped up time there, is that when you decided, you know, it's time to get out [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think that's like the first thing that kind of triggered my interest and pursuing something else. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I had a good deployment and there wasn't a whole lot happening overseas when I was in the structure of the guys who were deploying, and there were always texting, and what do you guys doing at everybody's fighting for work? [UNKNOWN]: They're talking about doing a beach debt for deployments next year.

2:13:20 [UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking, man, maybe it's a good time to I had a great experience, maybe I should explore something else and so that's kind of like in the back of your head a little bit and there's always political things and bureaucracy and we all have our own little biter things about the teams that maybe trigger us to want to get out or do something else but when I was [UNKNOWN]: I drew a lot of tattoos for guys in the platoons and platoon logos and patches and all those kinds of things but it wasn't until I was an instructor that I had enough time to like actually do hobbies, you know, or kind of re-engage some of the things that I enjoyed outside the teams.

2:14:06 [UNKNOWN]: And I remember one day going into the Master Chief's office there on the grinder and he had this freaking rad statue of the trident behind him and I thought that's really cool as a sculpture, you know, so you can see like the little sculpture marks and it was just a really cool piece of art And I said my wife will never let me put that in the house and I definitely can't fit in the second phase instructor's office Because I mean you remember that thing, it's like a closet [UNKNOWN]: So I went on that night before I got home, I stopped at the little arts and craft store and picked up some paint materials and my wife was watching Netflix and I was just kind of painting the tried and trying to make it look real, you know, like a bald eagle and a real flint lock and all that.

2:14:53 [UNKNOWN]: I finished it in a dare to brought it into the office and I [UNKNOWN]: One of the other instructors, like, dude, where do you get that painting? [UNKNOWN]: I said, I painted this. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, you didn't paint that. [UNKNOWN]: Did I paint it? [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, freaking give me one. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I said, I'm not painting another one, bro. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, no, give me a print. [UNKNOWN]: I'll pay you. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, give me a hundred bucks. [UNKNOWN]: I said, freaking, how much does a print cost to make? [UNKNOWN]: He's like, I don't know, just take the hundred and then take a photo and have it printed for me. [UNKNOWN]: And so I gave him one. [UNKNOWN]: And as I was given him one, another teammate walked in. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, dude, where do you get the print? [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, he painted it. [UNKNOWN]: He said, you painted it. [UNKNOWN]: You didn't bait that. [UNKNOWN]: I painted it, you know, so there's like this little triangle thing going on. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, well, I want one, you know. [UNKNOWN]: And before you know it, I got dozens of team guys.

2:15:35 [UNKNOWN]: I got these things stacked to the ceiling in my house and guys, wives are buying them for their husbands. [UNKNOWN]: And I was just having a really good time. [UNKNOWN]: It was just so fun to, I paid that I made something that guys wanted in their house and [UNKNOWN]: Then I painted the mark five-dive helmet for the divers at the second phase shop. [UNKNOWN]: I was selling these prints and didn't anybody get in trouble for working when they're at Buds with you like doing anything on the outside? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, there was some like bounce or moon lighting stuff. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, right. [UNKNOWN]: It's got wrapped up for. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So at the time, right before I checked, and I think somebody got in trouble for like running like a little pre-bud school, you know, training some students and stuff making a little bit of extra cash on the side and it's a little frowned upon.

2:16:24 [UNKNOWN]: Um, my wife comes into the room one day and she says, hey, you know, master chiefs so and so I was like, yeah, what's up? [UNKNOWN]: And she's like, oh, his wife just messaged me. [UNKNOWN]: He's going to be coming over and at some point today I was like, [UNKNOWN]: Did they say anything she's like no she got one of your prints for a while ago And I'm like dude. [UNKNOWN]: I'm screwed. [UNKNOWN]: You know I'm selling these things and making money and You know I'm gonna get chewed out or an or an worst trouble and Said when just when did she say he's coming over? [UNKNOWN]: She's like she said sometime in the next 5 to 10 minutes and crap, you know clean up everything you know [UNKNOWN]: And uh, there he comes walking down the road and knocks on my door and say, hey, Master Chief, how you doing?

2:17:12 [UNKNOWN]: He's like, hey, man, you paint that picture? [UNKNOWN]: Yes, yes, Master Chief. [UNKNOWN]: And he says, can I come in and talk for a bit? [UNKNOWN]: It's like, yes, Master Chief storms in and he's like, man, you got to do something with this. [UNKNOWN]: He's like, this is really cool because I had a couple other paintings kind of out now. [UNKNOWN]: So I was working on and he's like, you need to do something with this one day. [UNKNOWN]: And that's kind of when it first appeared, like the thought came into my mind, [UNKNOWN]: to paint and make it a profession one day and I felt super blessed because you know I was already kind of leaning towards exploring other options but a big show with a lot of team guys is you feel that desire to get out and do something else but you don't have something that you're passionate about that you can kind of invest in because we always think like I need something that I'm as passionate about.

2:17:58 [UNKNOWN]: as I was becoming a seal, and that's just not realistic. [UNKNOWN]: That's not the case for everybody, but I felt incredibly blessed. [UNKNOWN]: All of a sudden, I had this heart change and desire to master this craft and become the best artist that I could, man. [UNKNOWN]: So then I just started YouTube and everything, trying to be the best artist that I could be and make little adjustments here and there to make better pieces, but yeah, I just became obsessed with painting. [UNKNOWN]: and I mean that's a fascinating and it's really cool to hear that he was supportive and not there to yeah that was a huge encouragement for me it was kind of like the blessing of from the master chief he was up from Mick Bonner the Navy and I was like you know if this guy's telling me to do something with it and a part of me it's like a team guy my people wanted to be in the star social media so I could like start selling prints to [UNKNOWN]: Big Navy and doing ships and stuff like that.

2:18:53 [UNKNOWN]: I was like, I don't want to do social media or Doing anything public. [UNKNOWN]: I just want to do this internally. [UNKNOWN]: You know for the guys and and then Master Chiefs like, no, you need to go out and do something with this like different and it was really cool Just kind of like, okay, maybe maybe that's okay. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, maybe that's okay [UNKNOWN]: So at that point where you like, okay, I'm going to get out and do this or because you do still in the house. [UNKNOWN]: No, it was still kind of one of those things where I felt my heart that I had made kind of an idol of the teams and my family was suffering because of, you know, what I wanted.

2:19:33 [UNKNOWN]: And so I felt a desire to do something else. [UNKNOWN]: I didn't know still if I could make a career out of being an artist. [UNKNOWN]: I thought, wouldn't it be cool one day, maybe I'll own a gallery, or work with artists, or I'll work in a film studio, or something to make animated movies, or something artistic, you know, prop design, whatever, I thought it would be just really cool to do something creative. [UNKNOWN]: But what that look like, I wasn't sure, and like many guys, it's like, okay, I'm getting out I need to make this amount of money in order to survive and live at the same lifestyle that I've been living out for the past X years.

2:20:14 [UNKNOWN]: And so, you know, there's not a whole lot of jobs out there that are willing to pay somebody six plus figures, getting out fresh and green from the military. [UNKNOWN]: But I found a really cool big company that was willing to hire me kind of fresh out of the gate to, you know, as an account executive in the civilian world. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, well, maybe I'll like it, and I can just do something else on the side. [UNKNOWN]: I just want to figure it out. [UNKNOWN]: I found out real quick that that wasn't for me, you know, and you're saying what it was. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, the company, yeah, is a company called BlackBod. [UNKNOWN]: There's a constituent software management company. [UNKNOWN]: They sold software to the non-profits so that they could help raise money for non-profits.

2:20:58 [UNKNOWN]: It was a cool organization, big. [UNKNOWN]: It's like Google, they have a video game room and kombucha on tap and all the bells and whistles. [UNKNOWN]: And that was cool to kind of see what a big company was [UNKNOWN]: Man, every day I went into that office. [UNKNOWN]: I was like, what the heck am I doing? [UNKNOWN]: I do not belong in this place. [UNKNOWN]: And so I do the nine to five deal and then come back home, but the kids to bed and paint till three o'clock and four o'clock in the morning. [UNKNOWN]: And then, [UNKNOWN]: repeat and you know eventually I got on the social media thing and because you can't survive with a business without having social media night nowadays it is an absolute requirement and so I started you know posting some of my work [UNKNOWN]: and then one thing led to another and it was like painted something sold painted something sold prints sold and it got to the point where I came to my wife and I said okay how much money do we really need to make here because I'm hating my life and the paintings are kind of selling but maybe if I [UNKNOWN]: went full time I could paint if I paint this amount you know every month we could make it and so my wife was she she works like 20 hours a week and she's virtual and so like all right let's I think we we have enough buffer to kind of create a little on ramp and you know I have pulled shocks from that that job and and just went all in on art it's been it's been like that ever

2:22:35 [UNKNOWN]: It's an incredible journey, but how long were you in the corporate position for me? [UNKNOWN]: There was like six months, right? [UNKNOWN]: Dude, it was a hustling six months, and it was kind of like during that COVID period. [UNKNOWN]: You know, so I'm working virtual and painting at the same time for a lot of that. [UNKNOWN]: But there was like three months where I was going into the office every single day and just it was gross. [UNKNOWN]: Not your deal, right? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and I get, thank you to the dads out there that just grind it out, you know, and still, you know, it's okay that work is work and there's always going to be some element of labor and that's even in art, you know, now there's there's portions of it that I really don't enjoy doing and it's it's labor, but you know, it's nice to find something that I'm really passionate about and yeah.

2:23:24 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I experience that sometimes too, you know, even though all the things that I do are things that I love doing and I chose to do them and continue to do. [UNKNOWN]: There is an element of, you know, people say, if you want the lottery, you know, what would you do? [UNKNOWN]: And so I go do that for a living. [UNKNOWN]: It changes things when. [UNKNOWN]: your livelihood depends on how productive and good you are at the thing that you're passionate about, you know, sometimes that I don't want to say it can ruin it, but it can definitely muddy the water and turn something that's a passion at hobby into something that maybe you resent a little bit sometimes, you know. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, there's definitely days where some pieces that I work on, like, let's get this thing out of here, I don't want to look at this anymore, and then other projects that I get just super, like there's like the kid again, you know, it's really creative and excited about, [UNKNOWN]: At the end of the day, man, I'm just so grateful to continue to be able to continue and do this.

2:24:17 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know, every day that I can, so. [UNKNOWN]: All right, so one of the things that I find fascinating about your art career is that it's self-taught, and I know whether it's singing or certain skill sets that some people are, yes, just born with, but a lot of people have to go to school and try and spend years perfecting their technique and stuff. [UNKNOWN]: How big of a challenge is [UNKNOWN]: kind of figuring it out on your own. [UNKNOWN]: Obviously with YouTube and masterclass stuff, like there's a lot of tools out there now that 20 years ago weren't possible. [UNKNOWN]: like how do you take the approach to to teach yourself how to get better.

2:24:59 [UNKNOWN]: That's a good question. [UNKNOWN]: You're right, the School of YouTube has been a big deal. [UNKNOWN]: The internet makes things easy to learn. [UNKNOWN]: I think the big thing for me is just recognizing, the military is really good at this is processes, you know, sequences and building a system that [UNKNOWN]: It helps you learn something and so I just kind of Recognize okay. [UNKNOWN]: I have discrepancies. [UNKNOWN]: I have problems. [UNKNOWN]: You got to recognize the discrepancy come face to face with it not avoid it And then address it and do better next time. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and so I just told myself look, I'm not I'm okay with not being the best But I don't want to continue to make the same mistakes.

2:25:43 [UNKNOWN]: So if I'm doing something that I don't like in my work [UNKNOWN]: then what am I doing wrong? [UNKNOWN]: How can I fix it? [UNKNOWN]: And then make sure that I don't keep messing it up, you know? [UNKNOWN]: And also just having people kind of coming in the right time and challenging you a little bit like when I first started painting, [UNKNOWN]: It when I was in the military, my wife and I love going downtown to the galleries and in Coronado walk and there's a couple little art shops there and I was in the gallery looking at some paintings and my wife is talking to the lady who's asking about us and where we're from and I was like oh my husband's an artist and the lady says oh what artist do [UNKNOWN]: Da Vinci, Michelangelo, you know, like Ninja Turtles, and you know, just feeling self-mounted.

2:26:47 [UNKNOWN]: I'm like dang dude, I don't even know what artists I like. [UNKNOWN]: And for me, that's kind of like, you know, you want to be a film director and you don't watch movies or you don't know what you actually like about certain movies. [UNKNOWN]: You really challenge me there, so I'm like, okay, what are do I like and why do I like it? [UNKNOWN]: You know, what components of that artist composition or story is making me have an emotional reaction to it or interested in it? [UNKNOWN]: So I just start looking up artists, and I remember being a kid, like in, you know, in CYath in the old Treasure Island, illustrations, or Robinson, Carruso illustrations, and like in those guys.

2:27:32 [UNKNOWN]: But I was a big fan of statues in the old masters in the Renaissance era, and those really dark, dark colors, and the moody black, you know, backgrounds, and lighting, and Rembrandt. [UNKNOWN]: Um, so I just started figuring out what artists I like and why I like them and then trying to emulate those components in my own work, you know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: And so just finding like little moments like that kind of, oh, I have a whole environment there, like that could be helpful for me to actually be a good artist and say something with my art, that's not. [UNKNOWN]: Like I have no interest in self-expression necessarily but in coming alongside with all these great masters that have, [UNKNOWN]: have created incredible bodies of work over the past and kind of talking to them in an interesting way and giving little nods in composition, or in color, or whatever, so there's elements of that that just challenge you and make you interested in doing it.

2:28:28 [UNKNOWN]: But when I first started a lot of my work, some of the first advice I got was like, do black and white, that way you're not distracted with all the colors and all that stuff. [UNKNOWN]: I started painting a lot of statues and then you get bored with paint and black and white and you're like okay, what's something that's not going to take a ton of color? [UNKNOWN]: What's something with really a lot of black makes it easier so you know you're minimizing the amount that you have to paint and color and and so you kind of like create a composition that's dark, moody maybe a guy coming out of a shadow with a Tomahawk or something like that and then you you paint it and it turns out really good and then you do another painting and another painting [UNKNOWN]: These are moody paintings are cool, but I'm so tired of painting black.

2:29:12 [UNKNOWN]: Like I want those vibrant colors that I love as a kid and you wanna make it fun and fresh. [UNKNOWN]: And so, all right, I'm gonna paint something with a really big beautiful clouds or sheep in a field or something like that. [UNKNOWN]: So you're always just kind of evolving and trying to make something that is interesting to you and that you can learn from. [UNKNOWN]: From a growth standpoint, do you feel like your painting has a fairly linear curve to getting better at it? [UNKNOWN]: Like, do you look at paintings from a year ago and be like, man, it's terrible. [UNKNOWN]: Like, are you super self-critical or from five years ago and like, man, what a [UNKNOWN]: what a piece of crap or like sometimes yeah sometimes I'm like ah that wasn't my best work you can still see some of the things that hurt you and I think every time you finish something there's going to be a little piece about it that I wish I could change this but I I'd have to scrape it all to restart and you know somebody's buying it you can't spend forever on it and uh you kind of take your lessons and you and you move on but there's some paintings that I look back on and I'm like [UNKNOWN]: I was a lot looser and I like this effect that I was doing and I actually did it on accident or I was just rushed and I really like how that looks now and I was over critical of myself.

2:30:34 [UNKNOWN]: So sometimes I look back and I'm like, I actually need to be more like that. [UNKNOWN]: I need to implement more of that in my work. [UNKNOWN]: Now I'm getting to [UNKNOWN]: dialed in or two controlling over every little aspect and detail because sometimes you know what's really fun about paint is You have one back there behind you, but I can look at it from here and I see this great composition cool color [UNKNOWN]: really pretty picture but then as you get closer and closer to it there's a lot of abstraction you start seeing all the little brush strokes and you're like oh that's not actually like a guy's hand that's actually just like three strokes of a black wash and then two white strokes kind of on as this fingers but from here it looks really cool so you you learned to appreciate the abstraction and trying to like kind of push some of those limits and do more with less and it makes it not just a [UNKNOWN]: When you the owner get tired of just looking at the details it gives you like oh man the decision making That that artist made to make that work is is really interesting It was millions of them, right?

2:31:38 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's right. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah So that aspect of art and creations like super interesting To me and it's constantly evolving and I'm kind of Evan and flow in with how how locked in a piece I want it I want to be with and I [UNKNOWN]: And then sometimes, I just like, I want to make this as realistic and as close to what this guy wants because this picture is very meaningful to him. [UNKNOWN]: That kind of comes when I'm painting pictures for team guys or something like that. [UNKNOWN]: I assume the goal is always to get better, but do you feel like you're at a point where you could get way better at painting? [UNKNOWN]: I, yeah, I hope I do. [UNKNOWN]: I do.

2:32:18 [UNKNOWN]: I, I guess that answers your question with trajectory. [UNKNOWN]: Sorry. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I'm always every single painting that I finish. [UNKNOWN]: I say, I hope this isn't my best. [UNKNOWN]: I hope this isn't my best working. [UNKNOWN]: That's how it always feels, man. [UNKNOWN]: No matter what, some about every project, there's something that I enjoy, you know, there's something that I'm like, I didn't, I really nailed it here or I could do something better there next time, but I think one day I hope to be at a, I always hope to be better, you know how it is to like any time you're creating something you're like, I just want to keep getting better. [UNKNOWN]: No, I've never arrived, and that's some teams too, like that you've never arrived, you know, you're always always being new guy.

2:32:59 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, well hopefully you're not the, uh, I hate that I'm even using this as an analogy. [UNKNOWN]: Britney Spears, oops, I did it again. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah [UNKNOWN]: Religious works or reinterpretations of famous religious works? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, a ton, man. [UNKNOWN]: I'm not like a... [UNKNOWN]: I guess like a Christian painter. [UNKNOWN]: I think it kind of sounds silly. [UNKNOWN]: Like, I know that sounds stupid. [UNKNOWN]: Like, I'm a Christian new paints, you know?

2:33:40 [UNKNOWN]: But it's like a chef, it can a chef be a Christian chef, you know, is like all of this food have to come out and crosses and like, it's not a realistic, you know, but what I do think is in creation, I think we're replicating what's good and true and beautiful. [UNKNOWN]: And so, you know, if you're painting something and telling a lie, that's not, that's not conciting coinciding with what it's Christian, you know, what is good and true and [UNKNOWN]: And in some of my work, I'm a lot more open and deliberate like this is David as a shepherd in a tree. [UNKNOWN]: I wanted to paint like and see whyeth and William Adolf Bougaro and make this piece because I love those artists.

2:34:23 [UNKNOWN]: And then other ones, you know, I did this big old five foot by seven foot canvas of like a retelling of David's mighty man. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know if you're familiar with this story. [UNKNOWN]: So there's, can I, can I go into a little story-time Bible story-time with Justin Hughes? [UNKNOWN]: No. [UNKNOWN]: So there's David, who is kind of the king of Israel, is outside his home town and the Philicines have kind of encircled the town. [UNKNOWN]: And he's in hiding with a bunch of his mighty men as warriors and [UNKNOWN]: David says kind of probably passing like a man if I could only drink from the well outside the town you know longing for he's from the area and so he has memories of drinking from this well as a kid and three of his mighty men hear the request to the king you know let's go get him the water you know so they break through the enemy lines draw water from the well and bring it back to David and David's like [UNKNOWN]: He viewed the water as a blood of the man.

2:35:27 [UNKNOWN]: He's like, should I drink the blood of these men? [UNKNOWN]: And he says, this blood isn't for me. [UNKNOWN]: Like this far be it for me. [UNKNOWN]: And he pours out the water as an offering to the Lord. [UNKNOWN]: Because he recognized that the only thing worth these men's lives is, y'all weigh, God. [UNKNOWN]: And... [UNKNOWN]: So I was looking at a bunch of old masters and I saw this painting of the taking of Christ by Caravaggio, and if for us when we look at that piece, we're like, oh yeah, these old soldiers are pulling away Christ, but they're all wearing like Dutch flimish armor, you know, for us that would be like swat guys carrying away Jesus, you know, it's like a modern reinterpretation for their times, that's what it would look like.

2:36:12 [UNKNOWN]: It's like I don't know if I want to do something like that, but maybe I can paint like what if I did three operators bringing, you know, a cup to the viewer and kind of telling that story like look we've all been given a cup, you know, and and you can drink it selfishly or you can pour it out as an offering to God and and give it to others and so for me that was kind of like me saying like I want to pour out my cup to to. [UNKNOWN]: Christ as an offering, I want to pour out these skills to God that the gift said he's given me as an offering to him and so but also challenging people that look at it to do that. [UNKNOWN]: So there's you know elements of that and some of my work but then other times man, you know it's a guy coming out of a shadow at the Tomahawk and yeah. [UNKNOWN]: You know, there's there's components to that like a man doesn't our the government doesn't bear the sword in vain You know, they they've been established to punish evil and do it's good and and so We don't have swords, but we have Tom Hawks, so I'm speaking to some of that in some of my work, but To a team guy is just a cool picture of a guy with a Tom Hawks.

2:37:11 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, yeah [UNKNOWN]: I find it fascinating that you have this ability to do different styles more than, I guess, most artists that I've seen, is that an example, not skill set, but maybe preference in terms of how you create that. [UNKNOWN]: A lot of artists share where they will do something like Monet, something like Rembrandt, something like Dolly, like have these just like dial it in one, one way. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's like all I mean every time. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I'm a cloud painter or cowboy painter, whatever. [UNKNOWN]: Is that common? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: I think it, I think it really depends. [UNKNOWN]: make for me I feel like I'm very much in my infancy of art.

2:37:53 [UNKNOWN]: I'm still learning constantly and a lot of that transformation comes when I'm looking at some of these artists that I admire and I say I like elements of that that artist what do I like about it and how can I do something that tells a modern story like how can I apply that in our context. [UNKNOWN]: And so I want to speak with those old artists and replicate that work. [UNKNOWN]: So like the Carvassia, those old Rembrandt and Baroque painters, some of my work emulates that dark period of time, where those, that style that those guys were painting. [UNKNOWN]: And then, you know, again, learning about NCYeth and his color palette and the bright clouds and illustrative storytelling components.

2:38:37 [UNKNOWN]: And I love those little pictures, so I want to do something that's important to me or speaks to me in story and paint that style. [UNKNOWN]: So in the right now, dude, I'm illustrating a kids book, you know, and every picture is hand painted. [UNKNOWN]: And it's a little bit more cartoony because it's for boys, you know. [UNKNOWN]: But I'm looking at all artists like Lion Decker and Wyeth and the old illustrators and trying to bring in components of that. [UNKNOWN]: So I don't think it's typical for, you know, a lot of sometimes like gallery artists that I'm a swan painter or I'm a horse painter. [UNKNOWN]: A lot of people just kind of like find their niche and they kind of get in the groove and do it, but I'm way too curious.

2:39:22 [UNKNOWN]: And interested in telling a bunch of different stories. [UNKNOWN]: And I have a really broad view of in taste of art. [UNKNOWN]: And I want to dip my hands into all of it and learn about all of it. [UNKNOWN]: So maybe one day it'll kind of like dial in and settle in. [UNKNOWN]: Kind of like a specific subject. [UNKNOWN]: But I don't think right now I'm in a place where I just want to be like a seascape painter. [UNKNOWN]: You know, that's not really my thing right now. [UNKNOWN]: can or would you do a commission where like if somebody said hey can you do the last supper in a Monet style yeah totally like you would do that yeah of course and it'd be a really cool opportunity to practice painting like Monet I guess but yeah I don't typically get style requests you know they're not [UNKNOWN]: It's not usually like that, but what will happen is hey, I really like this painting that you did Can you do one like that, but telling this story, you know, or with this lighting or something like that?

2:40:26 [UNKNOWN]: So typically it's it's more like Already in the lane of something that I've kind of practiced and in proven that I can paint with and then doing the same thing I don't think people [UNKNOWN]: You know, to a certain extent, they want the voice of the artist, they want the experience that and the interest that you've already expressed interest in to be replicated in their work, so it doesn't look like something that's not something I've done in the past. [UNKNOWN]: Right. [UNKNOWN]: Does that make sense? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So it's like, if I didn't Monet, and I've never done Monet before, or done [UNKNOWN]: practice that shows my interest in Monet. [UNKNOWN]: Well, then they're going to have a painting in their house that looks like a Monet of the last supper and you will tell them it's a just and you use painting, but then they're going to look at the my entire other body of work and see nothing that emulates that.

2:41:16 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I mean? [UNKNOWN]: So in a weird way, you kind of want the artist to explore those areas by themselves and kind of dial it in. [UNKNOWN]: and then come in and say, hey, I'm like, and what you're doing here, what do you think? [UNKNOWN]: I think those typically make the best commissions, but when you're just like an AI prompt or a prompter, you know, like paint the last up or in Monet, and from this angle and close up on Jesus, I think it gets more and more. [UNKNOWN]: Speaking of AI, speaking of AI, do you see a threat to your work, or for my perspective, it's almost the opposite [UNKNOWN]: I know for me, like, I value real things even more now with AI saturating so much of what we see on social media and just in life in general, I guess, it makes me want and appreciate handmade things and even created stuff if you had that same thing.

2:42:11 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so there's kind of two sides to the AI problem. [UNKNOWN]: It's kind of taking art from artists of the past and then now it's taking art from the artists of the future. [UNKNOWN]: and I'll give you an example. [UNKNOWN]: We kind of just like an announced one of the soft opening to this kids book and posted some pictures of the paintings that I did for it. [UNKNOWN]: And some of the comments are like this looks like AI and I'm like, dude, these are hand drawn hand painted pictures. [UNKNOWN]: I literally did this physically from because I don't want my work digital. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I'm not a digital artist. [UNKNOWN]: And so in that way, it's kind of like, dude, people are missing out, and AI is like making people question everything, which it can be helpful, but also, you know, it's robbing future artists of work.

2:43:04 [UNKNOWN]: And so, [UNKNOWN]: To me, it's like the physical object existing is super important because at the end of the day I can say, no, you know what, that's hanging on somebody's wall at home and the internet can never, all right, you know, whatever the monsters of the AI world can't rob that experience that, you know, Mike can walk up to painting and look at every brushstroke and the time that you took to paint all the details of this story for him. [UNKNOWN]: And honestly, man, I see with the way that social media is kind of unwinding a appreciation for analog and I kind of noticed it at first with the rise of, if you notice like baseball card trading has become more popular, yeah, it's like out of nowhere, these guys want the people want the physical thing again, people are, it's becoming more and more popular, I think there's becoming a craving.

2:44:01 [UNKNOWN]: for analog and having a real experience and real conversations around pieces. [UNKNOWN]: And that's one of the things that I love about painting and working with people and commissions is because you get to have conversations with people and they tell you their story. [UNKNOWN]: and you build a painting for them based off of their story. [UNKNOWN]: That's custom and based off of our conversation and felt emotion over an experience. [UNKNOWN]: AI can't feel that emotion, right? [UNKNOWN]: You know, it might be able to paint you a pretty sunset but it cannot feel what it was like to be there that day. [UNKNOWN]: And they can't smell the ocean and have the heart [UNKNOWN]: I mean, even the option of failure, you know, it can't risk anything, it can just make things and then just put it out on the internet when I paint something, I'm risking failure.

2:44:57 [UNKNOWN]: And also, I'm kind of being vulnerable because it might suck, you know, and that's a real pot. [UNKNOWN]: Like, it hasn't happened yet, thank God. [UNKNOWN]: It's like, everybody's been super stoked with my work, but, [UNKNOWN]: You know, you're risking somebody not being pleased with the way that you painted them, you know, and that risk takes heart and emotion and vulnerability between the client and the artist, and I think that's super important to have for sure, and it makes something more meaningful, man. [UNKNOWN]: Sean, when I did Sean's paintings for him in his studio, like almost emotional because to a certain extent, all he's ever seen is those on the little tiny screen. [UNKNOWN]: He's never had somebody sit down and care enough about his story to get it all right.

2:45:39 [UNKNOWN]: You know, I want to make sure I take care of Sean's story because one day his kids aren't just going, you can print that out all day long, but [UNKNOWN]: But it means nothing because one, you're investing money in it. [UNKNOWN]: But there's also a real person that's spent time doing that. [UNKNOWN]: And you've cared enough about it to say, I want this to last hundreds of years. [UNKNOWN]: You know, I want my kids to remember these moments of my life and creating something that's long lasting as adult painters. [UNKNOWN]: It's special, man. [UNKNOWN]: It's special. [UNKNOWN]: That's a lot of room for the family too. [UNKNOWN]: Sorry to be there. [UNKNOWN]: No, I love it. [UNKNOWN]: from a strategy standpoint, in terms of how you go about it, why oil painting?

2:46:23 [UNKNOWN]: Well, acrylic is just essentially plastic. [UNKNOWN]: You're just painting plastic on a thing. [UNKNOWN]: It also dries really, really, really fast. [UNKNOWN]: So pretty much as soon as you mix a paint, it can dry on your ballot, almost before you apply all the paint that you want to put up. [UNKNOWN]: But oil paint is one of those things where the pigments that they use are historical, they last longer, and not to say acrylic doesn't last longer, but it's just not been around as long as oil painting as. [UNKNOWN]: There's also with oil specifically, the darks are really, really, really dark, so you can get really black almost like a...

2:47:07 [UNKNOWN]: You know, not visible when you have a nice light on it, it looks more, you get more dimension and 3D effect when you have a really high, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you get like when you get really high contrast in the image and oil paint creates this really beautiful contrast. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know if you've been in museum or good art gallery in a while, but sometimes if an art, if an artist is good, they'll use that high contrast and it makes a painting look like you can just, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Scoop into it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I I'll have to look after we finish up here. [UNKNOWN]: I've got a few pictures from from the map that that I took of paintings that yeah, I was so blown away by seeing him in person I was just like I'm shocked at how how good this is and how detailed it is and [UNKNOWN]: because it's huge and the closer you look, the more detail you see in it.

2:47:55 [UNKNOWN]: It almost reminds me of like taking a really high resolution picture and zooming way in and you're just like, dude, it just keeps going. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: The amount of detail and intentionality that that R.S. [UNKNOWN]: would have had to put into this to create this is mind-bending. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, the paint pigments are like super versatile too and that's one of the things like you're not just taking a piece of paint and putting on a tube and then deciding where it goes like you have to mix all that before and some people mix, you know, just with their paint brush or whatever and then just go for it. [UNKNOWN]: But it takes a lot of practice and a lot of time to kind of learn how the pigments interact with each other, the oil paint, how fast something drives for so long, something takes to dry.

2:48:40 [UNKNOWN]: And that can affect how the painting looks, how long it takes to make a piece. [UNKNOWN]: But as far as oil paints extremely archival has the best kind of contrast, I think, in when it comes to painting. [UNKNOWN]: And it's just the best medium to work within my opinion. [UNKNOWN]: I know this maybe there's not even an answer to it because it's so varied but between size and subject but from an hour standpoint is there a rough ballpark of how long a painting takes you. [UNKNOWN]: It just depends, man, like smaller pieces, sometimes it can, you know, it can do it in a couple hours, you know, like real, real small. [UNKNOWN]: But I've had paintings take me months and months, depending on the layers that it requires.

2:49:25 [UNKNOWN]: And I try to kind of just finish as I go, so I'll work on a section. [UNKNOWN]: If I know it's going to take a while to dry, because the pigments are, like, start in or at nerd out on you guys. [UNKNOWN]: Like titanium white, white takes a really long time to dry. [UNKNOWN]: And if you're using pure white on a background, that can take months to dry. [UNKNOWN]: And if you're just using white as a base, you have to wait for that to dry before you can like glaze over it or paint back over top of it. [UNKNOWN]: Otherwise the paint will break up and crack on the top layer. [UNKNOWN]: And so there's like whole processes that you have to kind of trust. [UNKNOWN]: So if there's a painting where I'm using like a lot of titanium white or, you know, sometimes some of the blues.

2:50:08 [UNKNOWN]: or burnt umber, you know, it'll dry in a couple of days. [UNKNOWN]: And so it just depends on me. [UNKNOWN]: But big pieces, you know, several months, two, two months, three months, typically. [UNKNOWN]: I imagine from a commissioning price standpoint, that's what determines it then, [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think size and complexity. [UNKNOWN]: I think the more than I have to think about what this looks like. [UNKNOWN]: Like if you came up to me and said, I don't really know what I want, but I like your work. [UNKNOWN]: I don't think in something about like, you know, an example, I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking about the loss of my grandfather and how that made me feel, you know, like I just like you to paint something about that feeling, then, you know, there's going to be a lot of conversations that we have to have a lot to work through with drawings and kind of conceptualizing an image.

2:51:05 [UNKNOWN]: to appease you but you know if it's a team guy and you know like do that this picture is really important to me it was a special day on an operation like I want to memorialize it can you paint this for me that typically takes it's a lot faster and cheaper so yeah yeah is there a painting that you would hang on your wall in 50 years or or have for 50 years like if you painted anything that's that special to not 50 yet but uh [UNKNOWN]: I have a couple of my pieces on our wall. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, some kind of my, my metric is for a lot of my work is like, is it good enough that my wife would want me to hang in the house? [UNKNOWN]: Like, can I, could I hang this in the house? [UNKNOWN]: And sometimes you get thumbs up sometimes you get the thumbs down.

2:51:47 [UNKNOWN]: But there's a couple of pieces that I'm really proud of and have been in our house for a while. [UNKNOWN]: And I'm not ready to let go. [UNKNOWN]: Like, I'll hold on to them just because I think they'll be important one day. [UNKNOWN]: And I'll be able to sell them for more than they, you know, be worth now. [UNKNOWN]: because they're significant points in my artistic process where I kind of is like thinking about something different. [UNKNOWN]: It's important to me. [UNKNOWN]: That's cool. [UNKNOWN]: It's probably not an answer to this. [UNKNOWN]: Do you have a favorite painter and or painting? [UNKNOWN]: Dude, that's tough. [UNKNOWN]: Right now I'm a big fan of like the old golden age of illustration, guys. [UNKNOWN]: So J.C. [UNKNOWN]: Lion Decker and CYF. [UNKNOWN]: Rockwell, all those, you know, dudes that painted caricatures and told story and in oil paint but weren't So hyper realistic that it always looked like a picture.

2:52:36 [UNKNOWN]: I like, you know, I like having something that resembles reality [UNKNOWN]: But at the same time I kind of like a little stylization. [UNKNOWN]: I like a little color pop I like to bring bring because sometimes we remember things more vibrant and more beautiful Like I've seen photographs of landscapes that are pretty But then I've seen a painter paint it and I'm like that's how it looks in my brain [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's more vibrant, it's more beautiful than the picture, or even what reality is. [UNKNOWN]: But for some reason, we perceive things, and we store things in our minds that, like I don't know how to describe it other than there's like a vibration to the painting that just feels more real than a photograph or even seeing it in person sometimes.

2:53:22 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: yeah those guys are the best right now for me. [UNKNOWN]: Have you ever experimented with other mediums like completely outside of actually painting like like the the negative scratch board kind of stuff if you messed with anything? [UNKNOWN]: Not really man I wanted to do some sculpture stuff at some point like [UNKNOWN]: like bronze sculptures and smaller things, but it's just been such a busy season for me that and I'm enjoying painting so much that I want to focus on this one graph for now and then maybe once I've kind of gotten into more of a rhythm or I feel like I'm in a comfortable place in my career that I can brought in my horizons, I'll get more into that.

2:54:08 [UNKNOWN]: But I like drawing, I do [UNKNOWN]: You know, sketchbook, but nothing that's kind of outside the typical drawing and painting medium. [UNKNOWN]: Do you ever get painters block the same way a writer would? [UNKNOWN]: No, man, I'm afraid constantly that I'm going to die before I can paint all the things that I want to paint. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, just like there's never a shortage of things that I'm thinking about painting. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you did motion capture for Call of Duty, right? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: What was that like as an artist doing something like that? [UNKNOWN]: Oh, I guess that is a different medium of. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Well, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that is a certain extent. [UNKNOWN]: That was a really cool opportunity, man.

2:54:49 [UNKNOWN]: I never thought getting out of the teams, that that's something I would be a part of. [UNKNOWN]: There's actually a team guy over there that does directing with MoCAP at over an Activision, Michaela Vega. [UNKNOWN]: He went to Sean Studios all my artwork and he's like, wait, a teen guy, artist. [UNKNOWN]: And we just, he wanted to talk to me to talk about art. [UNKNOWN]: And I started talking to him because he did theater. [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, dude, I didn't, I did theater. [UNKNOWN]: You know, and we just connected over art to the theater team. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah. [UNKNOWN]: And we just had a great long conversation about theater and arts. [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, man. [UNKNOWN]: I would love to have you out here and work with you and it just happened to be at a time when Call of Duty was kind of getting there looking at a new project and he said we need some team guys there's you and I've talked to two other team guys that have done or are going to do like the core movement for the game and so he's like would you like to come out and be a part of it and of course man like [UNKNOWN]: It called do you use a big deal.

2:55:52 [UNKNOWN]: You had a dog. [UNKNOWN]: You called didn't you? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, did you get to do it? [UNKNOWN]: Did you get to do any of that? [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like what that looks like for you. [UNKNOWN]: Sorry. [UNKNOWN]: Flip the interview. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's trying to share is going to mind. [UNKNOWN]: I want to hear it. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Well, let me tell my story and then I want to hear about you. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: So, you know, you get all the dots on you and you. [UNKNOWN]: ABC's man always be cool, but that does not look cool when you're playing a imaginary and like the in the void and it was really cool. [UNKNOWN]: It was cool in the sense that you're kind of doing movements and team guy stuff, but doesn't look good when you're just taking pictures or trying to film it on the outside. [UNKNOWN]: So I don't think I'd ever anything that really talked too much about on social media, but it was a fun, really fun experience.

2:56:36 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Similarly, so back, this was in 2013, I think. [UNKNOWN]: We're so, it was Call of Duty Ghosts, and it was the first time that they had introduced the dog into the game. [UNKNOWN]: And so myself and another team guy each had dogs of our own, so me and my dog at the time Rico went out there and put him in the Spandex suit with the balls all over him. [UNKNOWN]: A good friend of mine Wayne Dodge did the decoy work, so he got in a bite suit and they put balls all over him. [UNKNOWN]: Oh no way. [UNKNOWN]: So really all of the like it. [UNKNOWN]: attack and working dog action sequences where my dog Riko and my buddy Wayne, for all of the kind of intimate close-in, you know, the face-to-face with the dog and the dog drinking and doing all of a kind of intimate movements.

2:57:23 [UNKNOWN]: It was a really great team guy Chris. [UNKNOWN]: And his dog, Ruger, I think, was his name at the time, did those scenes, so two different dogs, which is pretty common in movies and stuff where they'll use half a dozen different dogs. [UNKNOWN]: This dog is really good for this specific thing or what we're doing. [UNKNOWN]: It was really neat, and got some action figures, company made them, in fact I have one in the closet. [UNKNOWN]: That's cool. [UNKNOWN]: Just such a neat experience, so, because he was my soul-done, you know, really the foundation. [UNKNOWN]: He was the dog that was around for, you know, from the time my kids were toddlers until they were late teens.

2:58:06 [UNKNOWN]: And it was always there, you know, so just a really, really humbling and neat thing to be a part of for sure. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I have, so my one dog that's getting pretty old now, and she's been with us the whole time in the team before we had kids. [UNKNOWN]: It's one of those things man like dogs represent like an era of her life and when they pass It's kind of like that era's over. [UNKNOWN]: You know, it's a big marker and they're such You know better than I do and kind of talked about it earlier in the interview But I'm not looking for that day, man. [UNKNOWN]: No, it's brutal in any way [UNKNOWN]: yeah off camera we've talked a little bit about the parenting stuff and that was another part of I think the kind of depressing nostalgia feeling that I had is we lost him just a couple years ago and again like that represented their entire child who really you know because when we got him they were you know just old enough to kind of understand what a dog is even you know [UNKNOWN]: and had them all the way until, you know, they're well into high school and so losing him was kind of like losing a bridge to their entire childhood and it was man was brutal, like they're just...

2:59:20 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think you ever get over that, I mean, and it's almost strange how powerful losing a dog that represents a big chunk of your life that way. [UNKNOWN]: I can hurt you more than than human loss sometimes, you know, to hold on to that in a sense. [UNKNOWN]: Well, if it's any encouragement, I am fully convinced that Christ died to restore all of creation. [UNKNOWN]: So I fully expect to see these guys again, you know, today. [UNKNOWN]: Definitely. [UNKNOWN]: What a fascinating story, man. [UNKNOWN]: It's been a real treat to get to know you and sit down and hear your story. [UNKNOWN]: What's next for you? [UNKNOWN]: Just continuing to do what you're doing. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I, you know, I'm still just in the studio every day, Peyton, right now I have a, I think, I mentioned it briefly, just I'm working on a kids illustrated book and yeah, I think we're announcing it like mid-October, I don't know what time this will come out, but it probably will be a little after that.

3:00:13 [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, well, you know, it'll be, won't be making an announcement about it's release here pretty soon. [UNKNOWN]: So, [UNKNOWN]: That's kind of something new and fun and exciting that I've been a part of. [UNKNOWN]: My kids are getting a little bit older now for picture books, but you know I want something that dads can read to their sons and in a fun adventure picture book for boys is just something that kind of came on my docket and I've never done anything like it before and I don't want to write a book so I was like I'm going to all illustrate one. [UNKNOWN]: I don't feel I don't feel too bad about [UNKNOWN]: It's a great story man about boys playing war in their backyard, you know, which is what a lot of us For sure on us did. [UNKNOWN]: So there's just nothing like it for boys.

3:00:54 [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, I'm doing this one for the boys and the dad. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, awesome Man, thank you again. [UNKNOWN]: There's really not having I haven't asked you that I should have I don't think so covered at all. [UNKNOWN]: I think we did [UNKNOWN]: I don't know. [UNKNOWN]: That's not that's coming to my mind right now. [UNKNOWN]: Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't, I got to hope not. [UNKNOWN]: It's easier to be on your side, I think, but thank you again for taking time out of your schedule to come and share your story and a real honor to meet you and sit down with you. [UNKNOWN]: It was the pleasure it was really my man. [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for having me. [UNKNOWN]: It was really great to connect with you in person. [UNKNOWN]: Likewise. [UNKNOWN]: To the viewer slash listener I hope you enjoyed it. [UNKNOWN]: If you didn't you can choke yourself and until next time this is my drop